NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

[vannwolfhawk]

Well AROB you were not lying or exaggerating! Well, maybe a little… LOL! The Hawks are not fun to watch as a coach I will say that! SMH! I will also say they do not do my examples earlier any favors. BUT, teams like the Rockets & Hawks are not indicative of how the rest of the league plays for sure. I can see why you thought that they didn’t run much stuff though, because they don’t! HA! They do run quite a few PNR’s & DHO’s into PNR’s though. They definitely don’t run a lot of set plays with multiple options in it let alone any off ball actions REALLY, and they have way too much freedom to improvise imo… I can’t believe how little they run & I have never seen anything like it as far as lack of coaching or structure. Most all their 3’s come from drive & kick as does the Rockets. They must have there eyes on someone in that draft though! LOL! I’d probably not give them more than 35 real plays tops. I’d give 4 mid and 4 high post plays to the playbook just for my league purposes, but those plays wouldn’t apply for this team as no one would have those play types.

Anyways, I listed a few plays I saw in just watching some highlights of 3 games with searching only made shots in each game. As a user this might not be a playbook that is ideal to use online because of the DHO’s, but thats just the NBA now a days… It became frustrating though because a lot of the play actions I KNOW they had in 2K18 are no longer in 2K19 so I had to mimic and improvise a bit… A few plays they ran (especially some 3 Pt plays & shots from corner on swing & Runner action) I couldn’t even improvise as they are not in either game and we will just need to wait for Czar to update and add them in the game when he does the Hawks update. I will watch some more and get back and add to this list as I go. I just wanted to give you something to start with… Keep in mind I just watched 3 games worth of film here and I haven’t even searched the 3 point plays or off screen stuff yet…


Atlanta Hawks Plays

- **Fist 5 Out 6 - PNR
- **Fist 25 Give - PNR
- **Fist 5 Out - PNR (Backside Fill)
- **Fist 35 Swing Quick - PNR Option
- **Fist 15 Chin Give - PNR
- **08 Punch 15 Fist - Low Post
- **Fist 52 Side - PNR Option
- **Fist Bull Pitch - PNR Option
- Fist 51 Give 4 Out - PNR Option
- Punch 5 Horns Fist 2 - Low Post
- **Fist 15 High - PNR Option
- **Fist 15 Side - PNR Option
- Fist 5 Short 4 CNR - PNR Option
- ISO 1 Quick - ISO
- Punch 12 Spread - Guard Post
- Fist 45 Give - PNR Option
- ISO 1 Spread - ISO
- Fist 81 Out - PNR 3Pt
-

- Run Punch 15 Spread - Low Post - (Low Laker Cut Instead) They run a High Laker Cut but NO Plays to replicate it in 2k19 but had 5 plays like it in 18.

- Fist 35 Horns X - PNR - (Only play with flip action close enough in 2k19 to mimic the action - 3 Should drive and 5 sprints to weak side corner 3 pt.)

All 3 of the next plays are Elbow passes and the same idea. They ran this quite a bit. Unfortunately no play in the game for the action but these 3 get as close as possible Within the DHO & 3 Pt. Play types.

- Give Elbow 43 - DHO (Had to mimic this as well. It is close as Collins receives the elbow pass but Huerter cuts off split action and Tre comes back for DHO instead IRL)

- Same as above you could get away with Give Horns 42 Away - DHO - to mimic & get variety of action.

- 90 Quick 2 Give - 3Pt. - As close as you will get for the action listed above again as it was Huerter coming around for the 3 after the elbow and DHO. Difference here is Elbow pass to the 5 man not Collins at the 4.

- Cut 15 Alley - Cutter
- ISO 2 Spread - ISO
- ISO 5 Out 4 - ISO
- Give Elbow Series - DHO
- Give 42 Horns - DHO
- Give Warriors Fist 2 - DHO - Pinch Post (only thing wrong strong corner should be clear.
- Fist HHD Series - PNR
- Fist 15 Flat - PNR 3 Pt
- Punch 45 X - Low Post
- Quick Veer Fist - 3 Pt.
- Fist 25 Quick - PNR
- Give 51 5 Out - DHO

- Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt.???
- 98 Punch 25 - Low Post??? - Mimic Triangle Post Entry without the strong side DHO 1st… This also provides the High Laker Cut thru of the other Low Post Action.
- Quick Wide PIN - 3 Pt.


Similar Actions But Not The Actual Play
- 15 Fist 2 Quick - Mid Range

Possibilities For Plays To Add For Depth / Basic 3 Pt Plays (I WOULD USE THEM ALL/NOT REAL PLAYS THG)
- Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt.
- Quick Point - 3 Pt.
- Quick 5 Out - 3 Pt.

Cutter Actions I Would Use To Disguise Looks (I WOULD USE THEM ALL/NOT REAL PLAYS THG)
- Cut 5 Horns Dive - Cutter (Elbow Entry)
- Quick Elbow Cross - Cutter (Elbow Entry & Mimics CNR 3 Action/Runner)
- Cut Point - Cutter (21 DHO Action/Options)


TOTAL PLAYS ADDED BELOW = 42
PNR - 17 plays
Handoff - 6 Plays
Low Post - 4 Plays
3 Point - 6 Plays
ISO - 4 Plays
Guard Post - 1 (Vince Carter)
Cutter - 4

High Post - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types)
Mid Range - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types)


As you can see with these play types you are still going to capture how they play as it will be PNR heavy. The Hawks are a lot like the Rockets though and don’t really have the personnel to run specials for. It’s not like they have a J.J. Reddick or a Kyle Korver to run off screens. They have a lot of slashers with Prince, Bazemore, Bembry, Huerter, & Anderson. Lin & Tre Young obviously operating off PNR’s mainly. So, hard to say, but I’d assume why they play the way they do along with the tanking to get Zion. LOL! Play to your strengths though. Watching other teams I am seeing a lot more sets compared to Atlanta thats for sure.


This is precisely why we need these done though and why what Czar is doing is so great. He is adding realism by adding plays that teams run IRL so we can mimic our favorite teams. This in turn allows the CPU teams to have that SIM feel and we feel as we are playing each team. Teams don’t play like each other anymore. Even in years past when I have done playbooks I had to mimic a lot of things to similar plays, actions, or get players in spots as opposed to having every play their real plays. Thats not to say we didn’t have real plays that were in the game or that I could put in each team’s playbook just not all 50 could be real in what they actually step by step ran IRL. With him adding real plays per team we can get that realism each and every year… Now we just need the same detail to player tendencies to bring out each players individualized real life tendencies to have players playing and performing their real life moves as well.

[olajuwon34]

Quote: Originally Posted by El_Poopador

Why did you find it necessary to use a massive font? It doesn't help get your point across; if anything, it makes it worse.

If a dev were to for some reason scroll through this thread, he would definitely not miss that, and maybe thats all the poster wanted.

[alabamarob]

Quote: Originally Posted by vannwolfhawk

Well AROB you were not lying or exaggerating! Well, maybe a little… LOL! The Hawks are not fun to watch as a coach I will say that! SMH! I will also say they do not do my examples earlier any favors. BUT, teams like the Rockets & Hawks are not indicative of how the rest of the league plays for sure. I can see why you thought that they didn’t run much stuff though, because they don’t! HA! They do run quite a few PNR’s & DHO’s into PNR’s though. They definitely don’t run a lot of set plays with multiple options in it let alone any off ball actions REALLY, and they have way too much freedom to improvise imo… I can’t believe how little they run & I have never seen anything like it as far as lack of coaching or structure. Most all their 3’s come from drive & kick as does the Rockets. They must have there eyes on someone in that draft though! LOL! I’d probably not give them more than 35 real plays tops. I’d give 4 mid and 4 high post plays to the playbook just for my league purposes, but those plays wouldn’t apply for this team as no one would have those play types. Anyways, I listed a few plays I saw in just watching some highlights of 3 games with searching only made shots in each game. As a user this might not be a playbook that is ideal to use online because of the DHO’s, but thats just the NBA now a days… It became frustrating though because a lot of the play actions I KNOW they had in 2K18 are no longer in 2K19 so I had to mimic and improvise a bit… A few plays they ran (especially some 3 Pt plays & shots from corner on swing & Runner action) I couldn’t even improvise as they are not in either game and we will just need to wait for Czar to update and add them in the game when he does the Hawks update. I will watch some more and get back and add to this list as I go. I just wanted to give you something to start with… Keep in mind I just watched 3 games worth of film here and I haven’t even searched the 3 point plays or off screen stuff yet… Atlanta Hawks Plays - **Fist 5 Out 6 - PNR - **Fist 25 Give - PNR - **Fist 5 Out - PNR (Backside Fill) - **Fist 35 Swing Quick - PNR Option - **Fist 15 Chin Give - PNR - **08 Punch 15 Fist - Low Post - **Fist 52 Side - PNR Option - **Fist Bull Pitch - PNR Option - Fist 51 Give 4 Out - PNR Option - Punch 5 Horns Fist 2 - Low Post - **Fist 15 High - PNR Option - **Fist 15 Side - PNR Option - Fist 5 Short 4 CNR - PNR Option - ISO 1 Quick - ISO - Punch 12 Spread - Guard Post - Fist 45 Give - PNR Option - ISO 1 Spread - ISO - Fist 81 Out - PNR 3Pt - - Run Punch 15 Spread - Low Post - (Low Laker Cut Instead) They run a High Laker Cut but NO Plays to replicate it in 2k19 but had 5 plays like it in 18. - Fist 35 Horns X - PNR - (Only play with flip action close enough in 2k19 to mimic the action - 3 Should drive and 5 sprints to weak side corner 3 pt.) All 3 of the next plays are Elbow passes and the same idea. They ran this quite a bit. Unfortunately no play in the game for the action but these 3 get as close as possible Within the DHO & 3 Pt. Play types. - Give Elbow 43 - DHO (Had to mimic this as well. It is close as Collins receives the elbow pass but Huerter cuts off split action and Tre comes back for DHO instead IRL) - Same as above you could get away with Give Horns 42 Away - DHO - to mimic & get variety of action. - 90 Quick 2 Give - 3Pt. - As close as you will get for the action listed above again as it was Huerter coming around for the 3 after the elbow and DHO. Difference here is Elbow pass to the 5 man not Collins at the 4. - Cut 15 Alley - Cutter - ISO 2 Spread - ISO - ISO 5 Out 4 - ISO - Give Elbow Series - DHO - Give 42 Horns - DHO - Give Warriors Fist 2 - DHO - Pinch Post (only thing wrong strong corner should be clear. - Fist HHD Series - PNR - Fist 15 Flat - PNR 3 Pt - Punch 45 X - Low Post - Quick Veer Fist - 3 Pt. - Fist 25 Quick - PNR - Give 51 5 Out - DHO - Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt.??? - 98 Punch 25 - Low Post??? - Mimic Triangle Post Entry without the strong side DHO 1st… This also provides the High Laker Cut thru of the other Low Post Action. - Quick Wide PIN - 3 Pt. Similar Actions But Not The Actual Play - 15 Fist 2 Quick - Mid Range Possibilities For Plays To Add For Depth / Basic 3 Pt Plays (I WOULD USE THEM ALL) - Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt. - Quick Point - 3 Pt. - Quick 5 Out - 3 Pt. Cutter Actions I Would Use To Disguise Looks (I WOULD USE THEM ALL/NOT REAL PLAYS THG) - Cut 5 Horns Dive - Cutter (Elbow Entry) - Quick Elbow Cross - Cutter (Elbow Entry & Mimics CNR 3 Action/Runner) - Cut Point - Cutter (21 DHO Action/Options) TOTAL PLAYS ADDED BELOW = 42 PNR - 17 plays Handoff - 6 Plays Low Post - 4 Plays 3 Point - 6 Plays ISO - 4 Plays Guard Post - 1 (Vince Carter) Cutter - 4 High Post - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types) Mid Range - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types) As you can see with these play types you are still going to capture how they play as it will be PNR heavy. The Hawks are a lot like the Rockets though and don’t really have the personnel to run specials for. It’s not like they have a J.J. Reddick or a Kyle Korver to run off screens. They have a lot of slashers with Prince, Bazemore, Bembry, Huerter, & Anderson. Lin & Tre Young obviously operating off PNR’s mainly. So, hard to say, but I’d assume why they play the way they do along with the tanking to get Zion. LOL! Play to your strengths though. Watching other teams I am seeing a lot more sets compared to Atlanta thats for sure. This is precisely why we need these done though and why what Czar is doing is so great. He is adding realism by adding plays that teams run IRL so we can mimic our favorite teams. This in turn allows the CPU teams to have that SIM feel and we feel as we are playing each team. Teams don’t play like each other anymore. Even in years past when I have done playbooks I had to mimic a lot of things to similar plays, actions, or get players in spots as opposed to having every play their real plays. Thats not to say we didn’t have real plays that were in the game or that I could put in each team’s playbook just not all 50 could be real in what they actually step by step ran IRL. With him adding real plays per team we can get that realism each and every year… Now we just need the same detail to player tendencies to bring out each players individualized real life tendencies to have players playing and performing their real life moves as well.

I will say 10 of these plays they dont run, and another 10 are the same play with different players. However, i will look at the specific plays and let you know. I know for a fack they dont run that hhd series or that cutter play. I also have not seen 1 post play all season. All of the post action i have seen is freelance. Finally, adding mid range plays is laughable. Look at their shot chart. 3s and paint. They arent running mid range plays.

[vannwolfhawk]

Quote: Originally Posted by alabamarob

I will say 10 of these plays they dont run, and another 10 are the same play with different players. However, i will look at the specific plays and let you know. I know for a fack they dont run that hhd series or that cutter play. I also have not seen 1 post play all season. All of the post action i have seen is freelance. Finally, adding mid range plays is laughable. Look at their shot chart. 3s and paint. They arent running mid range plays.

Lol! I don’t think you read through my lengthy posts. I’ll say it early so you don’t miss it. Mid range and high post plays in this scenario within a playbook is for my league players who play fantasy leagues. You have to account for that when doing playbooks. This isn’t a playbook for 1 type of player it’s for the masses and all modes. You have to think outside the box and factoring in everyone who buys the game. The mid range I posted I just listed because they ran the shooter coming off the screen from the block to the corner. I wasn’t saying use that I was just referencing we needed that action in. The play they ran a lot was actually Tre passes to elbow go’s to screen away for prince, prince rejects and just runs through the paint. Then Tre curls back and gets DHO or pitchback from Elbow guy then prince comes off the screen on block to corner for corner 3. They ran it to Huerter as well. The mid play IF you go look at it shows the end result. You can only mimic certain things if they don’t exist in game. Bring that up to czar not me. Lol I didn’t have any mid range plays listed to use. Just said put in for my league longevity. Nothing else. Plus the Hawks would never run mid range play because no one has the play type. You don’t assign it to them. So it’s like those plays aren’t there. Only for my league guys. Make sense?

2nd the actions they ran the most are not even in the game. I’d say about 8-10 plays that were in 18 or were actions I knew I needed to find don’t exist in 19. A perfect example is Fist 52 side. The Hawks run that play EXCEPT it starts from Tre passing to the 2 then the pnr comes. But that doesn’t exist in 19 with the same set up or with screen happening wing to side. I could mimic it from wing to top key but they didn’t run that. Lol! The 3 plays that are the same (similar), but different people is the DHO into pnr which they ran the most of. Seeing they ran that a ton to see it more vs CPU you add it more. I think partially you are confusing a user vs user playbook and creating a playbook for the cpu and to have the AI running plays like they do irl. Obviously as a user you have that 1 play and don’t need 3. Look at a few of Czar books there is 2 of same play (same play name) too. I can’t duplicate a play though like devs can. Only put similar one in.

The cutter plays were to get those actions as far as players getting scores of cuts. You could for sure eliminate and I posted in the post that they DIDN’T run them BUT I would add them BECAUSE they can act as a counter (elbow feed, etc) to plays they do run. They ran simple pin downs. Every pnr and handoff they ran a few times (only watched 3 games of film).

As far as post ups go, I saw a few high low feeds. They ran horns looks too. The 08 15 Fist they absolutely ran. They might not look for post feed in set plays, but they do hit it and if you don’t account for it they will never do it in game which they clearly do in game. They ran a few punch plays into a high laker cut. I watched it but hey you know your team would never do it! Lol! Like I said in previous posts if it’s in their playbook add it. Do you really think the hawks have 0 post plays in their playbook? That when you play them and vs cpu you want them to never pass to post? Not to mention AGAIN That even if they don’t run any you still HAVE to account for it for my league players.

You must think I’m just making it up for fun, I’m an idiot and havnt scouted 3 years of college basketball, or you are just missing the point of my previous posts of the reasoning behind the why do something, Or maybe you just want to argue with me. Lol

The Fist HHD they do start in horns and 1 guy pops up to set pick while the other spreads. The way Hawks ran it though was Len sprinted to opposite corner. It used to be in 18 but I couldn’t find it so the closest I could get from their pre set horns look they run was the HD’s play. Again try and get as close as we can without having their real plays in the game.

Like I said In the very last paragraph was numerous actions are not represented in the game so I had to improvise until we get them and czar gets to them and adds them in. They had about 10 things that don’t exist in game. Let Czar release his plays for hawks and you can see them. So by your account the Hawks should have 10 plays total in their playbook and if it’s anymore it’s wrong? Lol!

But here is an alternative option as well, you can always just keep the fake hawks playbook too that doesn’t replicate real life at all! Lol! I choose to try and make the best of what game gives us and replicate the best we can. If we had real hawks plays in like I described above then I’d 1000% switch them out with the look a likes!

But bottom line is the Hawks flat out suck and you can see why. You were right they don’t run much. But that’s not the norm for 28/30 teams.

[vannwolfhawk]

Disregard my last post AROB. I re-read my post again to see if I didn’t explain myself properly in my original post. Then I realized no way did you read it as I clearly stated my reasoning of everything & then I realized that you just went directly to look at the plays. Lol! That’s what I get for long lengthy drawn out posts and for biting on your trolling. I get skimmers skimming my posts... ha

[JoFri]

Shall we stick to the plays the teams run irl this year?
Having too many good to have plays really confuses me when I try to relate them to the team.

I just want to add on that running the plays the teams run irl gives me a sense of realism and some sort of association to the team. And it also motivated me watching a complete nba game (I'm not into nba score betting so yeah, pure sports enjoyment) without dozing off halfway through. Frankly, I care less about the other game modes. I also hope we are not turning this thread into sort of 'money play thread' as I believe there are tons in youtube.

And lets add some short video clips to enhance the learning experience of the depth of the plays.

I'll start off with this, one of the Lemarcus post plays left out from the earlier 2K playbook update but still ran infrequently irl this year.

'94 PUNCH WHEEL (post up low)

https://youtu.be/-LMP4oZ2hRI




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vannwolfhawk]

Quote: Originally Posted by JoFri

Shall we stick to the plays the teams run irl this year? Having too many good to have plays really confuses me when I try to relate them to the team. I just want to add on that running the plays the teams run irl gives me a sense of realism and some sort of association to the team. And it also motivated me watching a complete nba game (I'm not into nba score betting so yeah, pure sports enjoyment) without dozing off halfway through. Frankly, I care less about the other game modes. I also hope we are not turning this thread into sort of 'money play thread' as I believe there are tons in youtube. And lets add some short video clips to enhance the learning experience of the depth of the plays. I'll start off with this, one of the Lemarcus post plays left out from the earlier 2K playbook update but still ran infrequently irl this year. '94 PUNCH WHEEL (post up low) https://youtu.be/-LMP4oZ2hRI Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Definitely not a money play thread. Good idea of posting a video with the action and the 2k play name! Make sure to post that in the roster forum playbook thread too so we can keep track of them there and they don’t get lost... good stuff!

[ataman5]

I loved this thread. That's for sure. Thanks for all who contributed starting with Dirk, Vann and all.

From everything that i read above, yes there are issues on myleague/gm/career longevity. I think that coaches and players have to have a sort of playbook mechanic; an ai to really colloborate a some kind of a data on their own to create better playbook on their own and assign to the personel they have as myleague/gm/career and every other mode progress. Well yea i know this is crazy and as big as it can be like a new game a Football Manager ai adaptation, coach, personnel and team plans etc. It's hard i know.

On the other hand though "plays" are essentially one of the oldest tech 2k has created before freelance and before series so i believe the nba 2k future holds more than what we got as of now more than this traditional and fairly old implementation this very standart play call or playbook as a tech so i believe there should/would be some core changes the way of all things are collaborated and assigned to personnel. So i believe we'll have a wider horizon as the 2k series progressed on these playbooks.(That paragraph is future oriented thinking.)

I'm talking very unorganized here, sorry. As far as how many plays in a playbook a team must have; i also think that the less is the better. Because other than plays we have Freelance, Series in our service whenever we like and also AI has that,too. (Though i play with 40+ plays in my playbook yet i know a lot of others who only use 15 to 25) So it makes a huge variety with plays and all that and very robust choices we can make, we're spoiled here in a way but they are very cluttered and unorganized(Just like my post here.). And also yes we can talk about how the series is implemented which seems not really controllable within a series you can't control plays; yet i think we'll see it improved as the years go. Freelance came up big, ended up not so big but freelance has made its own place as it should on the court after all trial; so we'll see how series will develop as ai improves and tech will offer some more control i'm sure.

If in the future we keep having plays/series/freelance all together what is crucial is a better gameplan scheme we will have to be offered; It's been years for freelance yet we can't assign in our gameplans in MyLeague/GM Offline/Online etc. so it should be designed first in gameplans from league menus. Also it should be organized in a way that we can reach them in game or in menus with a better organization and flow to each other. For now Freelances are in one place, series on another and plays on another, i feel cluttered, it should be better organized and presented to gamers. For now it's like they are hidden and spread around gems that we should find out, you know not for me but most.