The Smashmouth Project

[Cryolemon]

I posted this on the form on the site, but I'll repeat it here, I think it's ok as long as it doesn't break blocking AI (which it has been known to in previous football games). One way round it is to have defensive playbooks that include pre-snap movements by default.

[Raingear]

In baseball games you can't line the pitcher up off the mound and pitch from there. In Basketball games you can't allow a player to just stand in the backcourt with the ball and play from there. So why in football games should you be able to do something dumb like put a big fat tackle at safety? You shouldn't. FB games have been letting this happen forever and it's wrong. It just invites people to be silly and unsim. I swear to God, I'm so sick of people doing goofy stuff like that online.One more thing, make people who go no huddle all game pay the price!

[kcarr]

Quote: Originally Posted by Raingear

In baseball games you can't line the pitcher up off the mound and pitch from there. In Basketball games you can't allow a player to just stand in the backcourt with the ball and play from there. So why in football games should you be able to do something dumb like put a big fat tackle at safety? You shouldn't. FB games have been letting this happen forever and it's wrong. It just invites people to be silly and unsim. I swear to God, I'm so sick of people doing goofy stuff like that online.One more thing, make people who go no huddle all game pay the price!

That is about like comparing apples and oranges isn't it? Your basketball and baseball examples are examples of moving a player around the playing surface in ways that are clearly against the rules of the game. The question is in regards to substitution situations not discussed in the rules of the game.

A more accurate example comparing to baseball and basketball would be putting derrick rose in at center or dwight howard at point guard or moving your shortstop to pitcher. The only difference I really see there is the makers of games of representing other sports have done a better job making the player's ratings accurately show the difficulties that would be seen there.

Sure, there will probably never be a situation where a DT should be playing safety, but where do you make the cutoff? He mentioned DTs playing LB in his post, there are occasionally guys who are looked at as 4-3 DEs or 3-4 OLBs who go to 4-3 teams and are used both outside at DE and inside as an inside rusher at DT.

It could be forseeable to see a tweener between safety and linebacker. If that player ended up sliming down and becoming a safety would it really be impossible to see a situation where he may play the nickle corner spot? I mean he is a defensive back afterall so there would be a player who could at some point go anywhere from LB to safety to corner.

The idea should not be to limit the user but rather to make the AI recognize the user's decisions and make a real life rish reward system. If the person was to for instance move their DT to safety then that DT's ratings need to show through with his inability to cover or play the position and his lack of mobility trying to chase down players and make plays in space. If a corner is moved to end his inability to stand up against the run and his lack of strength and probably lack of experience rushing the passer should show through and while once he gets into space he should be ok most of the time he should just get thrown around.

[Raingear]

Quote: Originally Posted by kcarr

That is about like comparing apples and oranges isn't it? Your basketball and baseball examples are examples of moving a player around the playing surface in ways that are clearly against the rules of the game. The question is in regards to substitution situations not discussed in the rules of the game.

But my point is about comparing absurdity of the situations, not about specific rules violations, and to me being able to put guys in spots on the
football field that don't make sense is just as absurd. Further, the question has nothing to do with substitutions. It's talking about pre-snap adjustments, and I can't see any reason why anyone would advocate being able to run a DT out to where a safety is or something wild like that during pre snap. That's not football and the only people who do that sort of thing are glitchers. It doesn't matter that it's not against the very letter of the rules, it's just not football and nobody in the world does it, so why should it even be in a football game? The one part we agree on is that you should be able to sub players in wherever you want in playcall and then be forced to pay for it if it's an unorthodoxed move, but once the play is called and you're on the field you should only be able to line players up in spots were it makes sense to core football principles and common practices. If it's not done in football, you shouldn't be able to do it in the game.

[mestevo]

Quote: Originally Posted by Raingear

In baseball games you can't line the pitcher up off the mound and pitch from there. In Basketball games you can't allow a player to just stand in the backcourt with the ball and play from there. So why in football games should you be able to do something dumb like put a big fat tackle at safety? You shouldn't. FB games have been letting this happen forever and it's wrong. It just invites people to be silly and unsim. I swear to God, I'm so sick of people doing goofy stuff like that online.One more thing, make people who go no huddle all game pay the price!

It's goofy until LB Mike Vrabel catches a TD pass, and DT Shaun Smith plays fullback on a goal line TD run, or when WR Randy Moss is in the defensive secondary or even when some of the better pass rushers in the game are asked to step back and play pass coverage on a zone blitz.

What you describe in other games is illegal, in football it's thinking outside of the box.

As soon as you start preventing general things like pre-snap adjustments you've hindered every legitimate player much more than the 'if's and 'buts' griefing scenarios.

[kcarr]

Quote: Originally Posted by Raingear

But my point is about comparing absurdity of the situations, not about specific rules violations, and to me being able to put guys in spots on the football field that don't make sense is just as absurd. Further, the question has nothing to do with substitutions. It's talking about pre-snap adjustments, and I can't see any reason why anyone would advocate being able to run a DT out to where a safety is or something wild like that during pre snap. That's not football and the only people who do that sort of thing are glitchers. It doesn't matter that it's not against the very letter of the rules, it's just not football and nobody in the world does it, so why should it even be in a football game? The one part we agree on is that you should be able to sub players in wherever you want in playcall and then be forced to pay for it if it's an unorthodoxed move, but once the play is called and you're on the field you should only be able to line players up in spots were it makes sense to core football principles and common practices. If it's not done in football, you shouldn't be able to do it in the game.

It is kinda vague in the question. It says presnap but then it discusses lining the DE up at CB or the DT up at LB like they were subbed in there. If what he is really asking about is moving players around presnap then that too is something that should be allowed and once again is something that the game just has to be able to take advantage of.

The reason this should be allowed is once again a matter of where do you set the limit. It is by no means rare to see pre-snap in the nfl players moving around quite a bit whether it is safeties starting deep and then moving up into the box, corners starting at one depth then changing to another, LBs starting in their normal spot then shifting one way or another or moving out to cover a slot or moving up to show blitz, LBs moving up to the line as DEs, Dlinemen standing up and moving back into a LB position changing from a 3 or 4 man front to a 1 or 2 man front, etc.

I would perfer a system where rather than limiting this you gave the AI the ability to make certain reads that are made in real life and make the adjustments at the line. For instance if you move your line too unbalanced one way they may adjust and run to the hole left open by that (apf 2k8 did this somewhat, if you read a play with a signal stealer and moved players to where the run was supposed to go they would change the play to run elsewhere). If you take players away from the line giving the AI the numbers advantage in the box they should look to run. If you move players up into the box they should adjust and look to beat you over the top, etc. These things would all be possible to build into an AI system as they are simply a count of players in one area vs players in another. This would give the benifits to those who make smart decisions with their player movement without limiting the user

[Raingear]

Quote: Originally Posted by mestevo

It's goofy until LB Mike Vrabel catches a TD pass, and DT Shaun Smith plays fullback on a goal line TD run

But that's the point. If it's done in football you should be able to do it in the game, if it's not done you shouldn't be able to do it in the game. What you described is something that does happen in football, so it should be in the game.

To go back to what I said earlier, I'm for subbing players in playcall wherever you want (which football games have had restrictions on for generations now, by the way), but I'm against being able to stand a DT up and run him back into the deep secondary or directy at corner before the snap. Why? Because it's not done in football and it never happens. But when and if it does happen, then I'll be for it, but I can't see it ever happening.

Quote: Originally Posted by mestevo

or when WR Randy Moss is in the defensive secondary

That's happened too rarely to be a substantial example (like end of half or end of game prevent defense situations, and then not that many times anyway). But to reiterate, I'm for playcall subs, I'm not for lineups of things not done in football.

Quote: Originally Posted by mestevo

or or even when some of the better pass rushers in the game are asked to step back and play pass coverage on a zone blitz.

But that's a real life play call. This again is something done in football, therefore I'd be for it.

Quote: Originally Posted by mestevo

or What you describe in other games is illegal, in football it's thinking outside of the box.

Lining a 330 pound DT at safety is not thinking outside of the box. What it actually is, is a defensive coordinator about to lose his job. And it's not football either.

[Raingear]

Quote: Originally Posted by kcarr

It is kinda vague in the question. It says presnap but then it discusses lining the DE up at CB or the DT up at LB like they were subbed in there.

I dunno, I didn't interpret it that way myself. Seemed pretty clear to me that it was asking if you wanted to be able to still do whacky unsim lineups like fb games generally do. My guess is that this could be addressed with settings/options.