2013 Hall of Fame Ballot Discussion

[jth1331]

The thing with Biggio, honestly, he was a very good player, but really, he would be what I would call above average for most of his career.
He had some great years in the '90's, but a lot of meh years to me.
I mean, his last year when he got his 3,000th hit he had a negative WAR.
Its just weird remembering watching some of these guys play as I grew up, thinking "Oh wow, he's pretty good, but probably won't be a HOFer." And then they turn into HOFers. Larkin was another guy, and Biggio was another.
I still feel Larry Walker should get a little more love, same with Albert Belle.

[snepp]

Quote: Originally Posted by jth1331

The thing with Biggio, honestly, he was a very good player, but really, he would be what I would call above average for most of his career. He had some great years in the '90's, but a lot of meh years to me. I mean, his last year when he got his 3,000th hit he had a negative WAR.

How can you cite WAR to support part of your opinion, while also calling him merely an "above average" player? Two WAR is an average player, 2-3 would be above average, Biggio averaged 5 WAR per year during the 90's. Even in the 2000's, on the downside of his career, he was still a 2-3 WAR player.

Players that hit and run like he did, while playing an up the middle defensive position, will never, ever be simply above average.

[seanjeezy]

Biggio put up all-star caliber numbers for an eight year stretch, he even had four MVP type (going by WAR) seasons mixed in. Even after his peak he had a few above average seasons and was a solid starter until he retired. Him and Roberto Alomar were pretty much the same through the 90's, and Roberto is in the Hall.

[Mo]

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...oid-suspicion/

[seanjeezy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mo

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...oid-suspicion/

The author cites the fact that Biggio had an unusual power spike in his late 30's, but all he did was change his hitting approach. Looking at his available batted ball data (2002-2007, includes the two years he set career highs in HR's) shows that his FB% greatly increased, but his HR/FB% only marginally increased. Biggio's HR/FB% was right around the league average from 2002-2007.

[jth1331]

Quote: Originally Posted by snepp

How can you cite WAR to support part of your opinion, while also calling him merely an "above average" player? Two WAR is an average player, 2-3 would be above average, Biggio averaged 5 WAR per year during the 90's. Even in the 2000's, on the downside of his career, he was still a 2-3 WAR player. Players that hit and run like he did, while playing an up the middle defensive position, will never, ever be simply above average.

In the 2000's he was not a 2-3 WAR player.
2000 - 1.3
2001 - 3.1
2002 - 0.2
2003 - 2.5
2004 - 1.0
2005 - 1.9
2006 - 0.2
2007: -2.3

An average of 0.9875 over those 8 years. Even taking out that negative WAR, its an average of 1.46 over the 7 years.

And comparing him to Alomar, if Alomar continued to drag on his career, Alomar had far better production to me, and was a force in the playoffs and a key part on 2 World Series champion teams.

[snepp]

Point taken, but I prefer to use FG's.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...49&position=2B

1.7
3.3
2.6
2.1
1.5
3.0
1.4
-0.7

It was nice of you to completely ignore the part about an "above average" player posting 5+ wins a year over a decade though.

Or how about the 70 career WAR, many above average players manage to attain that level? That's HoF lock material.

[DrJones]

My thoughts on PED users haven't changed:

1. Unless openly prescribed for health issues, the usage of anabolic steroids are both illegal in general and specifically against MLB rules (since 1992).

2. I have no particular sympathy for users (or even suspected users) who are denied the Hall of Fame. Even today, the penalties for being caught using PED's in baseball are miniscule. If you must feel sorry for athletic cheaters who got caught or outed, start with the likes of Marion Jones, Ben Johnson, or even Lance Armstrong, not to mention their lesser-known brethren.

3. That said, it should be MLB's job, not the BBWAA's, to determine what does or doesn't make a player eligible for the Hall. If Selig or whoever declares that those who admit or are caught using PED's are ineligible for baseball's highest honour, then fine. Until then, the BBWAA should simply vote as if player stats are legit (particularly since it's impossible to tell
who exactly used and how much they were helped by cheating).

4. Most if not all of the suspected users will make it in eventually, if their stats warrant it. At some point, someone who's thought to be "clean" will be revealed to be a user after already being elected to the Hall. (It wouldn't surprise me at all if there were a user or three already enshrined in Cooperstown.) If say, Jim Thome or Pedro Martinez (no, I'm not accusing either of using) were outed as cheaters after the fact, are the writers still going to keep out Bonds or Clemens? Nope.