Will Brady and Manning both go down as Top 5 QB's of all-time?

[lbartlett_32]

Quote: Originally Posted by NovaStar

No. You asked for stats and you got them. Your point is rather puzzling. Any qb that plays football (professional or non professional)plays in a system. The ultimate measure of a NFL qb is, can you, with the system you employ, get your team to the SB and win it. The ultimate measure of the legends and or great ones is how many times you win it. Peyton has a system, Marino had a sytem, Montana had a system, Starr had a system, and so on and so forth. You seem to hold the very thing that every qb had/has (a system) both great and not so great, against Brady. It like saying the only reason Brady is alive is because he breaths(equivalent of a system in football). Well guess what, every one that lives breaths. Every qb has/had a system. How many SB's he would have had if he played with the Dolphins etc...is like asking how many rings Michael Jordan would have had if he played with the nets, or how many Montana would have had if he played with Tampa Bay. It is totally irrelevant to anything. The question is how many does he have with the team he plays with. That is what is relevant. The outcome of any other proposed condition or alternate reality would lead one to conjecture and pure speculation, you don't prove points with either of those. You prove points with what you asked for above, factual information, reasonable analysis and stats. You now have those. If you choose not to apply what you were provided with to your analysis of Brady, that is up to you. But understand if you don't, your opinion dwells in the land of speculation and conjecture, that is like trying to stand on the planet Saturn, you can't, it is all gas there is nothing solid to stand on.

Nicely played. Great post.

Has anyone mentioned how Manning is pretty much the offensive coordinator? Has there ever been anyone with more on their shoulders? I think not.

[rdawsoniii]

Quote: Originally Posted by NovaStar

No. You asked for stats and you got them. Your point is rather puzzling. Any qb that plays football (professional or non professional)plays in a system. The ultimate measure of a NFL qb is, can you, with the system you employ, get your team to the SB and win it. The ultimate measure of the legends and or great ones is how many times you win it. Peyton has a system, Marino had a sytem, Montana had a system, Starr had a system, and so on and so forth. You seem to hold the very thing that every qb had/has (a system) both great and not so great, against Brady. It like saying the only reason Brady is alive is because he breaths(equivalent of a system in football). Well guess what, every one that lives breaths. Every qb has/had a system. How many SB's he would have had if he played with the Dolphins etc...is like asking how many rings Michael Jordan would have had if he played with the nets, or how many Montana would have had if he played with Tampa Bay. It is totally irrelevant to anything. The question is how many does he have with the team he plays with. That is what is relevant. The outcome of any other proposed condition or alternate reality would lead one to conjecture and pure speculation, you don't prove points with either of those. You prove points with what you asked for above, factual information, reasonable analysis and stats. You now have those. If you choose not to apply what you were provided with to your analysis of Brady, that is up to you. But understand if you don't, your opinion dwells in the land of speculation and conjecture, that is like trying to stand on the planet Saturn, you can't, it is all gas there is nothing solid to stand on.

All well and good, but still nobody has answered my basic question: What puts Brady above Starr and Bradshaw....both of whom have more championships than Brady? You agree with me that they are products of a "system"....and that many QB's who thrive in one system fail in another. So it must be the system and not necessarily the QB. Brady has done well at New England, but would fail in Miami. So that would mean Brady (or Starr, or Bradshaw) would not have won their titles had they been with other teams.

Since you basically state the measure of a QB is how well he does within a particular system in winning championships, how does Marino get a top ranking? He won zero Super Bowls.

All I am getting is platitudes for Brady (who I have said all along is a good QB) but no consistent criteria that is applied equally among all the "top" QB's in justifying a Top 5 ranking. I keep hearing "it's all about the titles" yet Marino is always up there but Bradshaw and Starr are not. "It's his stats" would be the justification for Marino, but others with great stats like Favre (who has better stats AND a title) and Tarkenton don't merit the same consideration.

Bottom line is: nobody can pick an accurate Top 5.

[NovaStar]

Quote: Originally Posted by rdawsoniii

All well and good, but still nobody has answered my basic question: What puts Brady above Starr and Bradshaw....both of whom have more championships than Brady? You agree with me that they are products of a "system"....and that many QB's who thrive in one system fail in another. So it must be the system and not necessarily the QB. Brady has done well at New England, but would fail in Miami. So that would mean Brady (or Starr, or Bradshaw) would not have won their titles had they been with other teams. Since you basically state the measure of a QB is how well he does within a particular system in winning championships, how does Marino get a top ranking? He won zero Super Bowls. All I am getting is platitudes for Brady (who I have said all along is a good QB) but no consistent criteria that is applied equally among all the "top" QB's in justifying a Top 5 ranking. I keep hearing "it's all about the titles" yet Marino is always up there but Bradshaw and Starr are not. "It's his stats" would be the justification for Marino, but others with great stats like Favre (who has better stats AND a title) and Tarkenton don't merit the same consideration. Bottom line is: nobody can pick an accurate Top 5.

O.k. I thought your point was that Brady did not belong in any discussions of top 5. There is no official top 5 of all time concerning NFL QB's. What you might have one day is a ESPN top 5 or a Sports Illustrated top 5. The point is that one can reasonably conclude, as the original poster suggested or alluded to, that either Brady or Peyton, or both will be in that discussion, along with probably Starr, Marino etc..SB's are used as a measuring stick to separate the great ones, stats not so much. It really depends on what the voters hold as more or less important. But to say that Brady or Peyton should be considered in the top 5 of all time is a very reasonable position to have. And if Brady's team goes undefeated and or they win the SB, and he breaks the single season TD record, he will be number 1. It is kind of like the top 50 players of all time in the NBA, you are not going to please everyone but the list is pretty accurate and reasonable.

[rdawsoniii]

Quote: Originally Posted by NovaStar

O.k. I thought your point was that Brady did not belong in any discussions of top 5. There is no official top 5 of all time concerning NFL QB's. What you might have one day is a ESPN top 5 or a Sports Illustrated top 5. The point is that one can reasonably conclude, as the original poster suggested or alluded to, that either Brady or Peyton, or both will be in that discussion, along with probably Starr, Marino etc..SB's are used as a measuring stick to separate the great ones, stats not so much. It really depends on what the voters hold as more or less important. But to say that Brady or Peyton should be considered in the top 5 of all time is a very reasonable position to have. And if Brady's team goes undefeated and or they win the SB, and he breaks the single season TD record, he will be number 1. It is kind of like the top 50 players of all time in the NBA, you are not going to please everyone but the list is pretty accurate and reasonable.

I think we pretty much are in agreement here. I probably didn't explain my position as well as I could have.

I still don't think Brady is a Top 5 QB at this time. By the time he retires, he very well could be. I like to reserve judgement until a player has completed his career.

If he keeps winning Super Bowls it would be tough not to rank him near the top.

[NovaStar]

Quote: Originally Posted by rdawsoniii

I think we pretty much are in agreement here. I probably didn't explain my position as well as I could have. I still don't think Brady is a Top 5 QB at this time. By the time he retires, he very well could be. I like to reserve judgement until a player has completed his career. If he keeps winning Super Bowls it would be tough not to rank him near the top.

Yeah Rdawsoniii, I kind of missed your point initially. We are pretty much in agreement.

[#85_on_a_mission]

Quote: Originally Posted by NovaStar

Your argument diminishes in the face of facts and stats. Here are Brady's accomplishments prior to 2007: Brady enters 2007 with a record of 82-26 (.759) in regular-season and playoff games. It is the best record of any NFL quarterback in the Super Bowl Era (since 1966) with at least 40 starts. Brady enters 2007 with a 12-2 (.857) playoff record, the second best in NFL history behind Bart Starr (9-1, .900). Brady is the only quarterback in NFL history to start and win three Super Bowls before his 28th birthday, having quarterbacked the Patriots to victories in Super Bowl XXXVI when he was 24 years old, Super Bowl XXXVIII (26) and Super Bowl XXXIX (27). Brady is the fourth quarterback in NFL history to lead his team to three or more Super Bowl wins, joining Terry Bradshaw (4), Joe Montana (4) and Troy Aikman (3). Brady owns two Pete Rozelle Awards as Super Bowl MVP (XXXVI and XXXVIII). He is just the fourth player in Super Bowl history to earn multiple MVP awards, joining Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw and Bart Starr, all three of whom are enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Brady enters 2007 with a 26-5 record in games where the final margin was less than a touchdown, including a 6-1 playoff record and a 3-0 Super Bowl record in such games. Brady enters the 2007 season having started 108 consecutive regular-season and playoff games for the Patriots, good for the third-longest streak among active NFL quarterbacks (trailing only Brett Favre and Peyton Manning). Brady enters 2007 as the NFL's all-time leader in overtime wins without a defeat, recording a perfect 7-0 mark in overtime in his career. Terry Bradshaw is the only other quarterback to be undefeated in at least five overtime games, posting a 5-0 record. Brady enters 2007 as the winningest quarterback in Patriots history in terms of total victories (82) and winning percentage (.759). Brady enters 2007 as the Patriots' all-time leader in career completion percentage (61.9 percent) and passer rating (88.4). He ranks second in completions (1,896), third in yards (21,564) and third in touchdowns (147). Brady has orchestrated 24 game-winning drives to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter or overtime. Six of his game-winning efforts have come in the postseason, where he has played in 14 games. Brady has led a game-winning drive to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter of each of the Patriots' three Super Bowl victories, becoming the only quarterback in NFL history to lead three such gamewinning drives in the Super Bowl. Brady enters the 2007 season with a career record of 40-8 (.833) in games played on Thanksgiving or later in the NFL season, including a 12-2 playoff mark. Brady enters the 2007 season with a career record of 21-2 as a starter (.913) in games played in temperatures below 40 degrees. Brady enters the 2007 season with a career record of 23-2 as a starter (.920) in games played on artificial surfaces. Brady recorded six passer ratings over 100.0 in 2006. He has recorded 39 ratings over 100.0 in his career, and the Patriots are 38-1 in those games. Brady tied an NFL record in 2005 by distributing his 26 touchdown passes to 12 different players. The only other NFL player to accomplish the feat was Brad Johnson in 2003. Brady set a career high in 2004 with a 92.6 passer rating, the second highest rating in Patriots history among players with at least 150 attempts (Tony Eason, 93.4 in 1984). In 2004, Brady averaged 7.79 yards per pass attempt – more than a full yard higher than his career mark of 6.62 yards per attempt heading into the 2004 season. Brady tied his career high and ranked second in the AFC with 28 touchdown passes in 2004. Brady owns the Super Bowl record for pass completions in a game, connecting on 32 passes in Super Bowl XXXVIII. Brady won his first 10 playoff games, setting an NFL record for the most consecutive playoff wins. Brady was voted an offensive captain by his teammates in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006. Brady completed a streak of throwing for at least one touchdown in 15 straight games, including playoffs (12/14/03 - 11/22/04), recording the longest such streak in Patriots history. Brady led the NFL with 28 touchdown passes in 2002 and became the first Patriot to lead the league in touchdown passes since Steve Grogan shared the lead with Cleveland's Brian Sipe (28) in 1979. Brady set a franchise single-game record by completing 84.6 percent of his passes (22-26) at Buffalo (11/03/02, min. 20 attempts). Brady threw at least two touchdown passes in each of the first five games of the 2002 season, the first Patriot to accomplish that feat and the first Patriot to throw for at least two touchdowns in five straight games in a single season since Butch Songin (10/23/60-11/18/60). Brady (24 years, 184 days old) was voted MVP of Super Bowl XXXVI and was the third-youngest player to earn the honor (Marcus Allen, 23 years and 301 days at Super Bowl XVIII and Lynn Swann, 23 years, 316 days at Super Bowl X). Brady was voted to the 2001 Pro Bowl and became just the second Patriots quarterback to receive the honor (Drew Bledsoe, 1994, 1996 and 1997). He also became just the fifth quarterback since 1970 to be voted to the Pro Bowl in his first year as a starter, joining Dan Marino (1983), Brett Favre (1992), Kurt Warner (1999) and Daunte Culpepper (2000). Brady threw for 53 yards on the Patriots' game-winning drive in Super Bowl XXXVI, completing five of his eight passes. Two of his pass attempts were spiked to kill the game clock. With just 1:21 remaining, he moved the Patriots into field goal position without the benefit of timeouts. Brady completed over 70 percent of his passes in four consecutive games during the 2001 season and joined an exclusive club of quarterbacks who accomplished the feat. He joined Joe Montana (8 games, 1989), Troy Aikman (4, 1995), Steve Young (4, 1993) and Sammy Baugh (4, 1945). Brady completed the first 162 passes of his career without an interception. It was the longest streak to start a career in NFL history and ranks third for most attempts without an interception in Patriots franchise history. What was your point again?

Football is a team sport. IMO, Rings overrate and underrate a player because of the way some people look at them. Some believe that a player doesnt have a ring because he isnt good. Football is a team sport and in order to have success you must play as a team and be balanced and successful at all areas of the game. Tom Brady can only do so much and its obvious that he was always blessed with a good team. Brady didnt win those Superbowls all alone. I didnt see him playing defense making tackles and key special team plays.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by stewaat

Has anyone mentioned how Manning is pretty much the offensive coordinator? Has there ever been anyone with more on their shoulders? I think not.

Unitas called his own plays.