The merits of NFL style/level customization in APF

[spankdatazz22]

Although it's been discussed, didn't want to sidetrack the wishlist thread

Quote: Originally Posted by ComfortablyLomb

The "NFL is going to get upset" and "EA could sue" if there were a full editor arguments are complete BS. Neither 2k, the NFL, or EA has any responsibility or say in what consumers do with an editor. Konami has been doing for years with Winning Eleven, other games have had similar features (Baseball Mogul comes to mind), and on the PC the mod community has basically built entirely new games off retail games. You're kidding yourself and others if you think anything happened other than 2k half-hearting this game.

I can't speak for 2K, but from the beginning they've stated they didn't weren't trying to make an NFL game. Given that the game has NFL legends perhaps there's no way they were going to completely distance their game from the NFL. But as we've discussed in the past, if NFL-level customization was first and foremost in someone's mind, then the best purchase for that individual was going to be Madden. And we've seen that play out - "I need NFL teams" "I need current NFL players" as being reasons people buy Madden regardless of it's issues.

As I said in the wishlist thread, I'm a person that would take the time to create NFL uniforms. Six of my eight created teams are based off NFL teams. But in my experience online, most people don't seem concerned with NFL teams. Not that my experience is representative of how all APF gamers feel of course. But I think for such a small group that would like the option of recreating the NFL, it seems foolish for a company like TT/VC which has had more than their share of legal issues to possibly invite problems. Especially when the game is going to have limited appeal/be a tough sell anyway. And when it's the NFL we're talking about, which has shown it'll go to lengths to protect it's property. Just because FIFA or whoever doesn't try to tie up Konami doesn't mean the NFL would look at things the same way imo.

Did 2K approach the game with the zeal they might've approached a NFL2K8? Of course not - and that shouldn't be expected. Given that they're trying something entirely new, and the entrenched relationship the NFL has with the American public, this game was going to have a difficult road. There are things they could've done better, but on the whole there are a lot of things they did right. As I've said many times in the past (and some may not like hearing it), APF has no where near the issues of Madden/NCAA do and likely plays better than both - with less next gen experience and without the advantages of having the licences. Imo they created a very compelling football game from what limited options they had which is a huge accomplishment.

[ComfortablyLomb]

Let's say a full editor would just give the game MORE appeal and by not including it TT left themselves with a game that has limited appeal anyway. This game has not sold well. Even with a Madden that has issues it still didn't really make much of an impact.

I still don't understand why people believe the NFL or EA would have any sort of case against TT if there were a full editor. The company doesn't bear responsibility for what consumers do with their product in something like this. It seems to me that it's not terribly far off from what Sony was sued for with it's Betamax system (tape recording of television programs) by Universal City Studios in the 1970s. A decent summary is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Co...y_Studios,_Inc.

The end judgement by the Supreme Court was that while Sony's recording device could be used for copyright infringement it only needed to be usable for other legitimate purposes to be sold to the public. You COULD use TT's editor to make a model NFL with NFL teams but you could also create a fictional league with fictional teams as well. The NFL has no right to prevent a product that can do that from hitting the market just because it could possibly be used to create real teams.

I don't think the lack of the editor was about the legal consequences. I think that's just what the 2k fans around here are saying to themselves because they didn't end up with in an otherwise good game. Even if TT said they never wanted anything to do with an NFL-like game or with an editor and that they wanted to do something like this themed game do you think they're going to come out and say that this was pretty easy to put together based on what they had from 2k5 and some nice upgrades?

[spankdatazz22]

It really isn't whether the case would have merit - it's the costs of having to defend yourself. With the potential inconveniences/headaches involved in doing so. Over a feature/option most people likely wouldn't use anyway. I'd welcome it if they did add it, but I also understand potential reasons why they wouldn't want to go that route. If we've learned anything the past few years, and especially the past few months - it's that people will accept pretty much anything regarding Madden as long as it has the NFL shield. So there should be no misconceptions that if APF somehow hinted at NFL-style customization, that it would've made a huge difference with reviewers and with public perception.

[VCdolphin]

I'd love to have all the custom options I can get my hands on. APF 2K8 is very limited in single player mode. If you don't play online (where it shines) then this game has very limited replay value.

While avoiding legal issues was part of why 2K Sports went this way, the other part -and more important in their minds, was to keep in the good graces of the NFL. Again, the legal issues were hardly the reason APF 2K8 was created as it was.

Upset the NFL, and you can kiss ANY chance of getting the license back in a couple years. It may be that EA and the NFL will go exclusive again anyway. Which is sad, since 2K has limited the appeal of APF 2K8 by avoiding too many custom options, yet it may not matter at all in the end.

What would stop 2K Sports from approaching the NFL, right now, about getting a license for 2010 though? They could try to gauge how receptive the NFL is to opening up the license again, and plan APF 2K9 accordingly. If the NFL refuses to talk about it, then they could tactfully explain they are continuing the APF franchise, but including more custom options to meet the demands of the gamers. With a limit on how many teams in the league (say 28 or even 30) they can point out how the NFL can't be recreated.

Even in the limited team names, you see how much 2K has avoided upsetting the NFL. Don't tell me that Bears, Eagles, Falcons, Vikings, Broncos and such names are not very common team names, even if at the high school level.

Bottom line? APF as a franchise, will be very limited as long as 2K is trying to please the NFL. Only when they get rejected again, or decide they won't get the license back, can APF reach it's full potential, similar to a game like Winning Eleven.

[Cardot]

Spank,

I agree that 2K has to focus their energies on what will sell. But simply adding some customizing options would not be too difficult....this type of thing have been in games for years. Infact much of the customization of unis is already there....I think they would just need to:
1. Allow customization for all 32 teams.
2. Allow a league of all editable generic players.
3. Add a pixel editor.

I think there would also be a small market out there for people to create the CFL or USFL or their own wacky fantasy world of teams.

[ComfortablyLomb]

Quote: Originally Posted by spankdatazz22

It really isn't whether the case would have merit - it's the costs of having to defend yourself. With the potential inconveniences/headaches involved in doing so. Over a feature/option most people likely wouldn't use anyway. I'd welcome it if they did add it, but I also understand potential reasons why they wouldn't want to go that route. If we've learned anything the past few years, and especially the past few months - it's that people will accept pretty much anything regarding Madden as long as it has the NFL shield. So there should be no misconceptions that if APF somehow hinted at NFL-style customization, that it would've made a huge difference with reviewers and with public perception.

I think you're neck deep into a pit of rationalization if you think this game didn't include editing because TT was afraid that the NFL and/or EA might file a lawsuit against them (which likely wouldn't go too far unless TT sent a crack team of suit-clad monkeys with banana filled brief cases to court for their defense).

As for the NFL being unhappy with TT the next time the contract comes up, which seems to be the "alternative" argument, the NFL will go to whoever will make the NFL the most money while not completely dragging the NFL's reputation through the mud with an inferior product. They're all about the money and they're not going to stick it to TT just because they included an editor in some football game.

Would an editor have made a huge difference in sales? Probably not huge (define huge), but that wasn't my original point. My point was that it wasn't in there because they simply churned out a football game based on what they had and what they could easily upgrade. They went with a gimmick in the HoFers that most people had little interest in and they could have done more. It was half-hearted and fed off the love of 2k5 by the fan base and they could have done more.

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cardot

Spank, I agree that 2K has to focus their energies on what will sell. But simply adding some customizing options would not be too difficult....this type of thing have been in games for years. Infact much of the customization of unis is already there....I think they would just need to: 1. Allow customization for all 32 teams. 2. Allow a league of all editable generic players. 3. Add a pixel editor. I think there would also be a small market out there for people to create the CFL or USFL or their own wacky fantasy world of teams.

You won't get an argument from me. I'd have probably tried it out, at least. Just saying that there were many people on the board that felt this was a necessity. But in playing online, I've only seen a handful of people that have taken the steps to create a team that resembles a NFL team. More customization is always better. But more means there's more that can go wrong, and that needs to be accounted for. Given the scope of the title, it likely didn't make sense to spend a lot of resources trying to implement a feature that many wouldn't use.

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by ComfortablyLomb

Would an editor have made a huge difference in sales? Probably not huge (define huge), but that wasn't my original point. My point was that it wasn't in there because they simply churned out a football game based on what they had and what they could easily upgrade. They went with a gimmick in the HoFers that most people had little interest in and they could have done more. It was half-hearted and fed off the love of 2k5 by the fan base and they could have done more.

Would a pixel-level editor have made a difference in sales? Hard to say; that's part of Forza's appeal but we're talking about a totally different dynamic. Personally I feel they took a practical approach to bringing out a non-licensed football game. I'm sure there are people out there that will dive into a pool without testing the water first. I don't blame them for taking a more cautious approach. A lot of us find the legends angle of the game quite compelling - would a game full of no-name generic players have had more appeal in your opinion? Extremely doubtful imo. And with the legends, you have identifiable styles - something they did a fantastic job on. Dan Marino looks and plays like Dan Marino. Signature style is a huge part of the reason the game's players seem to play distinctively. Something that hasn't even been hinted at in any other football game to date. You can belittle APF as a half-hearted attempt if you want, but given the hurdles the title had to overcome - and ESPECIALLY when you look at how forgiving people are of anything Madden does - it's obvious the game was going to have a rough road to go from the start.

They created arguably the best playing football game to date WITH limitations placed on them - but they could've [should've] done more?