Why A 2KSports Football Game Can Succeed In 2K6

[humpdump66]

First of all, I am tired of hearing people posting how it is not in Take Two's financial interest to make a "generic" Football game for the 2K6 football season. That is completely absurd. First of all, the cost to produce it will be minimal. Now i'm not in the development industry, but if everyone remembers correctly, the major innovations from 2K4 to 2K5 were:

1. Built for XBOX first = better graphics
2. More animations
3. VIP
4. Online Play
5. Crib
6. Corrected issues like super-RB's, DB a.i., etc.

Point is, major innovations occurred last cycle that can carry the game until the next gen consoles. Surely VC could tighten up some areas, but how much do you really think it would cost for them to freshen up the engine, add a fre more animations and AI, remove all NFL likenesses, and throw it out there. Furthermore, if they focus on the growing online community, they could still support leagues and the like. Instead of Steelers versus Patriots, it would be Player1 (gamertag) versus Player2 (gamertag). VC could throw a stripped down NFL but buffed up gameplay version of 2K5, call it 2K6, and sell maybe 150,000 copies or so. And this would not be bad business...why?

Take 2 plans to be in Baseball, Hockey, and College/Pro Basketball markets next season and beyond unless there is exclusivity reached by EA in the NBA, NHL, and NCAA. We know EA has Football, and can use that to cross promote the other games. New gamers will see Madden first, then see that EA makes other games and logically (so they think), they buy the brand in which they are familiar.

2KGames can do the same thing. If baseball is robust, gamer might look to what Take 2 offers in other sports...EVEN NON-Licensed Football. People tend to like brands...and Take Two might lose a few sales if they do not have a football presence. Say someone invests $20 in a generic football game but it exposes the gamer to Take 2's baseball, basketball & hockey games..isn't that a win? Generic Football could be just a small offering for a select market, but the fact it is offered makes the company look complete in the sports genre

Finally, 2K football is competing with Midway now for the fringe market. That has untapped potential. Why not explore it now on the current consoles last seasons to determine which way to go when the new hardware emerges.

They'd be fools to give up now. Shows weakness...

[BigTim]

"New gamers will see Madden first, then see that EA makes other games and logically (so they think), they buy the brand in which they are familiar."

what the hell does this mean.

Madden has been made for 15 years, yet NBA2K is the topseller.

This isnt Television, previous product does not influence possible purchases in the future. Maybe years ago, it would, but now in the days of the internet and a TV channel dedicated to gaming there is no bearing on the market.

I bought ASB for a few years just because I thought it was better than anything else out there. Then I saw the previews in magazines for MVP2003 and the pitching meter greatness(something I had been telling my friends for years would make baseball more enjoyable). There was no video preview in Madden for MVP to get my salivating.

All these companies see is dollar signs, and unfortunatley for us, this means they will not waste dev money on something that they dont think will sell, and 100k(which I think is way overshooting) units is not enough for them. You are talking 2-3 million gross dollars, which is a horrible return once you factor in the development cost.

Madden sold more copies for the PS2 alone then ESPN did for both systems. Thats 160 million in gross sales for one console(PS2) vs 50 million gross sales for both.(granted this doesnt include the price drop near xmas, so the numbers for madden are a little inflated)

Maybe now that you see some rough numbers you will realize how unfeasible it is for them to continue making a football game.

As has been said 100 times by other people, the population of the US are sheep. We want names, faces, the stadiums, to be able to feel we are in control of what we watch on TV.

I love and adore MVP baseball, but I will not be interested in buying a generic MLB game from them.

Also, you have to realize these games are a franchise designed to suck people into getting the next version. How would a complete game force people into buying another game? If they charge 50 for it to be a series ender and no worries about making another one, the average fan will be put off by a generic premium priced game. If the devs charge 20, then they get shortchanged from a game they can no longer make money off of. If they charge an online fee, then people get pissed at them for being greedy. Its a no win situation for them.

Not to mention the group with the larger console base(PS2) would likely be shut out from all of this due to the price of memory cards/hard drive. I doubt all of the information required would be able to be stored on one memory card, boosting the price up an extra 20 bucks.

The quicker you realize that the video game industry does not care about us, the quicker your ulcer from worrying over the game will clear up. The devs might care about us, but they are being paid by the corporate suits who would rather spit on us then lend us a helping hand.

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by BigTim

As has been said 100 times by other people, the population of the US are sheep. We want names, faces, the stadiums, to be able to feel we are in control of what we watch on TV. I love and adore MVP baseball, but I will not be interested in buying a generic MLB game from them.

I agree w/you that the general gaming population in the US are extremely shallow. But not so shallow that they'd automatically choose whatever company has an exclusive sports license. If Microsoft possessed the exclusive license, I don't think it would make NFL Fever an automatic choice for most. It'd increase sales for sure, but not make it a guaranteed buy IMO. Madden's fans would still crave Madden's gameplay.

This situation is different because most consider Madden a high quality game, so it makes purchasing Madden an easier choice. But there are some important facets of football Madden doesn't offer, which would be a competitor's selling point. You have to remember that the goal is no longer to sell as many units as Madden, it's to be profitable. If the sales numbers that people have sited here are true, VC was able to move nearly 2million units - very successful for a game of any genre. There's a reason Sony releases a new Ratchet and Clank, Jak & Daxter, Sly and the secret fox [or whatever the hell it is] - the games are profitable. They have an established fanbase that will buy the game regardless how minimal the changes from the previous years are. From a game development standpoint, it'd make sense for Madden to go to a bi-yearly release. But they're practically guaranteed to sell millions of copies of games, regardless of how minimal their improvements are - it's like they'd be walking away from free money.

The NFL2K series does have an established base of fans that like it's gameplay. If Madden had true gang tackling, realistic OL/DL play, a game that forced you to use realistic football strategies, etc., then it would make a non-licensed VC game a less attractive buy. It'd make a LICENSED VC game a less attractive buy. But Madden likely won't change a lot this year, so it's vulnerable from that standpoint.

[ODogg]

I agree and I'm sick of hearing the arguement ppl will just buy Madden, even ESPN fans, because it has the NFL license. However, I'm a huge MVP baseball fan and I would not look to buy it first over ESPNs game which will have the license but if I bought ESPNs and it was awful (which I know it wouldn't be but just saying) then I'd return it and get MVP even despite not having the license. I think people are a little bit more intelligent and choosy than we give them credit for. If Madden is a poor game even with the license ppl will not buy it as much and TakeTwos game could sell even if it is generic.

The real question to ask here is not could such a generic type NFL2k6 game be profitable. I think most of us agree it can be. The real question to ask is how profitable does Taketwo think it needs to be to make it worthwhile to produce the game? It depends on what Taketwo considers to be a "worthwhile" profit margin really. I think for most companies that is the bottom line, the extent of possible profitability not necessarily would it be profitable.

[Grandmaster1]

I wish you guys would shut up about a 2k football game.

You keep saying built for xbox,what about the 2k gamers who were getting the game on PS2?

[BigTim]

" a game that forced you to use realistic football strategies"

what, you mean running over everyone with Jamal Lewis play after play? Yes, it is as possible to run over everyone with the power backs, just like it is possible to pass over everyone with Manning-Harrison/Wayne.

ESPN people fail to realize the flaws in its own game, and choose only to complain about Maddens gameplay. Whereas all Madden people do is sit back and play the game, maybe take some time to figure out some sliders(like me, I enjoy more INTs, so i jacked up the slider on both cpu/human), and enjoy it.

Bottom line is, games cost money to develop. Developes make a very good amount of money. The equipment developers need to develop on costs substantially much more than the PC we use to surf the web.

Fact is, 2 million dollars isnt enough to warrant the development of a game that doesnt guarantee future sales. What do I mean by future sales? Well, in order for a game like this to be sellable, it needs to be complete. Why would a person buy NFL2K7 if NFL2K6 was a complete game.


"I think people are a little bit more intelligent and choosy than we give them credit for."

thats the thing. I know about 15 people off of the top of my head who will not buy NCAA for the simple fact that the names arent preinstalled on it. Ive told them that I would input them all, or go about getting them if they bought it, but to them it doesnt justify the purpose. The casual gamer isnt going to want to do all this crap just to play some games.

Also, we arent talking about Fever here. We are talking about a game coming from a company that makes a damn good game year in, year out. And even though they are exclusive, I'm sure the NFL wont allow them to sit back on their heels and release the same game every year. As much as this is all about money, the NFL is also a company that cares more about their image than any other company out there, in regars to public marketing. They might have made a good chunk of change just from the deal, but they also make money off of how many copies sell. If they see a review that says something is really bad, I have no doubt they will be all over EA getting them to do it right, or put them in breach of contract.

[blackceasar]

Quote: Originally Posted by BigTim

"New gamers will see Madden first, then see that EA makes other games and logically (so they think), they buy the brand in which they are familiar." what the hell does this mean. Madden has been made for 15 years, yet NBA2K is the topseller. This isnt Television, previous product does not influence possible purchases in the future. Maybe years ago, it would, but now in the days of the internet and a TV channel dedicated to gaming there is no bearing on the market. I bought ASB for a few years just because I thought it was better than anything else out there. Then I saw the previews in magazines for MVP2003 and the pitching meter greatness(something I had been telling my friends for years would make baseball more enjoyable). There was no video preview in Madden for MVP to get my salivating. All these companies see is dollar signs, and unfortunatley for us, this means they will not waste dev money on something that they dont think will sell, and 100k(which I think is way overshooting) units is not enough for them. You are talking 2-3 million gross dollars, which is a horrible return once you factor in the development cost. Madden sold more copies for the PS2 alone then ESPN did for both systems. Thats 160 million in gross sales for one console(PS2) vs 50 million gross sales for both.(granted this doesnt include the price drop near xmas, so the numbers for madden are a little inflated) Maybe now that you see some rough numbers you will realize how unfeasible it is for them to continue making a football game. As has been said 100 times by other people, the population of the US are sheep. We want names, faces, the stadiums, to be able to feel we are in control of what we watch on TV. I love and adore MVP baseball, but I will not be interested in buying a generic MLB game from them. Also, you have to realize these games are a franchise designed to suck people into getting the next version. How would a complete game force people into buying another game? If they charge 50 for it to be a series ender and no worries about making another one, the average fan will be put off by a generic premium priced game. If the devs charge 20, then they get shortchanged from a game they can no longer make money off of. If they charge an online fee, then people get pissed at them for being greedy. Its a no win situation for them. Not to mention the group with the larger console base(PS2) would likely be shut out from all of this due to the price of memory cards/hard drive. I doubt all of the information required would be able to be stored on one memory card, boosting the price up an extra 20 bucks. The quicker you realize that the video game industry does not care about us, the quicker your ulcer from worrying over the game will clear up. The devs might care about us, but they are being paid by the corporate suits who would rather spit on us then lend us a helping hand.

I can take it that Tim is the only same person on this thread. As bas as it sounds and I hate it just as much as the next person, people here just refuse to let reality set it. Dreaming of VC taking the fight to EA with another football game. TT is NOT making a pro football game or any football game this year. QUOTE ME ON IT. And when we find out for sure that me and Tim are right can we start a "I told you so" thread? People act like people like me and Tim are happy about this. It sucks. But its just like Bush being president. It sucks but the reality is there is nothing I can do about it. I can sit all day long and come up with conspiracy theories on how they can dig up some dirt on him and kick him out of the White House, but the chances of that are HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

You people sit up here and talk about how hard and talented the devs are at VC. Sure they are. They are the best sports game devs in the market IMO. BUT THEY DONT CALL ANY FREAKIN SHOTS!. They arent the ones with stock options, money invested into the company, they arent share holders, they arent sitting on the board of trustees making 1.2 million a year. They are the worker bees, and thats it. I hate the NFL deal EA struck. I hate what it's done. But there is nothing you or I can do about it. People can go get petitions all day long. The numbers dont lie. In the end the people who run EA and the people who run Take Two are concerned with one thing and one thing only. $$$$$$$. keep dreaming. Flame me all day for being "negative". Im not being negative..Im being realistic. Im living in the real world where I realize everything isnt always fair. Everyone isnt gonna do what you wish they would do. People just need to wake up and stop hitting the NFL2k6 snooze button.

[BigTim]

Quote: Originally Posted by Grandmaster1

I wish you guys would shut up about a 2k football game. You keep saying built for xbox,what about the 2k gamers who were getting the game on PS2?

It was built on the Xbox, which means it took advantage of its hardware first, and then dumbed down for transfer to the PS2.