Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

To put it simply, errors/fielding percentage only take into account when the defender attempts to make a play on the ball. You can stand still at your position and let ground balls go by you, and they aren't errors because no attempt was made at a play. Players who make more plays tend to make more errors (or in the case of Tulowitzki and Greene, the same despite over a hundred more plays). RAA measures, in terms of runs saved, the value of a fielder based on percentage of plays he converts on balls hit into his zone (defined on BP) and how often he reaches balls outside of his zone and records outs or errors. For a detailed description on how its measured, you need to purchase some literature.

Those players who go make more plays, or go out of their zone to make a play, typically make more errors than other players.

Pair that up with FPCT and you nearly have a well-rounded stat evaluation of a player.

I swear sometimes though they intentionally make these stats so hard to read and understand.

Kudos dkgo.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Those players who go make more plays, or go out of their zone to make a play, typically make more errors than other players.

Pair that up with FPCT and you nearly have a well-rounded stat evaluation of a player.

I swear sometimes though they intentionally make these stats so hard to read and understand.

Kudos dkgo.

Ugh. The obvious points to make are that plays outside of zone are more difficult to make and it is much more valuable to a team for a player to record 700 outs at a .980 clip than for a player to record 600 at a .982 clip, but I'm not sure what pull that would have.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Ugh. The obvious points to make are that plays outside of zone are more difficult to make and it is much more valuable to a team for a player to record 700 outs at a .980 clip than for a player to record 600 at a .982 clip, but I'm not sure what pull that would have.

No no no, my post is not what you think. What I meant was if you took all those defensive stats, FPCT, RAA2 (or FRAA), TC, E, ZR, and RF, you'd get a nearly well-rounded evaluation of the player's defense. Sorry about the half-lazy post in which I didn't include the others, but simply put not one single stat tells the story defensively.

Your explanation is good though. I didn't intend that you'd think I misunderstood it.

[MeanMrMustard]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

?

Gold Gloves rarely reflect defensive performance and are typically just awarded based on popularity and who won them before.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I arrived late to the thread.

At any rate, case in point: Rafael Palmeiro won a gold glove as a DH in 1999, only playing 28 games at 1B. How's that for reflecting defensive performance (or lack thereof)?

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I arrived late to the thread.

At any rate, case in point: Rafael Palmeiro won a gold glove as a DH in 1999, only playing 28 games at 1B. How's that for reflecting defensive performance (or lack thereof)?

Those 28 games must've been the games the people who voted have attended.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I arrived late to the thread.

At any rate, case in point: Rafael Palmeiro won a gold glove as a DH in 1999, only playing 28 games at 1B. How's that for reflecting defensive performance (or lack thereof)?

Probably the best example of the stupidity of them. Derek Jeter's also won a bunch.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Probably the best example of the stupidity of them. Derek Jeter's also won a bunch.

At least Derek Jeter plays a position, but it's ridiculous on how Gold Gloves are awarded.

[bjf1377]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

To put it simply, errors/fielding percentage only take into account when the defender attempts to make a play on the ball. You can stand still at your position and let ground balls go by you, and they aren't errors because no attempt was made at a play. Players who make more plays tend to make more errors (or in the case of Tulowitzki and Greene, the same despite over a hundred more plays). RAA measures, in terms of runs saved, the value of a fielder based on percentage of plays he converts on balls hit into his zone (defined on BP) and how often he reaches balls outside of his zone and records outs or errors. For a detailed description on how its measured, you need to purchase some literature.

Alright, I can take that as a more valid stat than F% now that I at least know what it is. I have one book that explains a lot more of these newer statistical measures, however there is a very heavy focus on pitching and hitting, so that is why I haven't heard of RAA2. Thanks dk

[bkrich83]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Late to this thread.

I've seen Khalil play a ton. I know a lot of people are big on statistics, especially the new manufactured statistics in baseball, but I don't know too many people who've actually watched Greene play a lot, say he's anything but an outstanding defensive shortstop. TT obviously has more arm strength. he's got the strongest arm at that position I have seen since Shawon Dunston, but Greene can make just about every play TT can make. He's really an underrated player at the position.

I have to wonder the people who are questioning Greene's defensive prowess, how many Padres games have they actually watched? Or is this based strictly on statistics by people who have really not watched?

[sportsdude]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Late to this thread.

I've seen Khalil play a ton. I know a lot of people are big on statistics, especially the new manufactured statistics in baseball, but I don't know too many people who've actually watched Greene play a lot, say he's anything but an outstanding defensive shortstop. TT obviously has more arm strength. he's got the strongest arm at that position I have seen since Shawon Dunston, but Greene can make just about every play TT can make. He's really an underrated player at the position.

I have to wonder the people who are questioning Greene's defensive prowess, how many Padres games have they actually watched? Or is this based strictly on statistics by people who have really not watched?

I don't necessarily think people are question Greene's defensive capability in general, moreso comparing him to others. As an owner of MLB.tv I've been able to watch Greene plenty and he's a wonderful shortstop. If I had to choose between him and Tulowitzki, as others in this thread have made the comparison, I would lean towards Tulowitzki, but if Greene could raise his batting average and on-base percentage, he would likely become one of the league's elite SS.

[bkrich83]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

I don't necessarily think people are question Greene's defensive capability in general, moreso comparing him to others. As an owner of MLB.tv I've been able to watch Greene plenty and he's a wonderful shortstop. If I had to choose between him and Tulowitzki, as others in this thread have made the comparison, I would lean towards Tulowitzki, but if Greene could raise his batting average and on-base percentage, he would likely become one of the league's elite SS.

Yeah between the 2 I am not sure where I would lean. Big difference in where the two play half of their game from an offensive standpoint as well. Greene puts up pretty good numbers in a pretty tough place to hit. That said, his pitch selection still sucks, and I am not sure he's always on the ball from a batting situational awareness standpoint. I like TT, and obviously I haven't seen him as much as Greene, but I'd be hard pressed to say I'd take him over Greene.

[Brandon13]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

I haven't watched Tulowitzki enough but Furcal has the strongest shortstop arm I've ever seen.

[dkgojackets]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

Greene is a good defensive shortstop. Tulowitzki last year had one of the best defensive seasons of all-time.

I watch a lot of baseball, but I'm not going to pretend I have a perfect memory which can recall every inning either of the two have played. That's why I trust the stats more instead of remembering what I want to remember. Everyone does that whether they try to or not.

[ryanm1058123]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

dk, i know you are a big hanley fan. if he could just get his defense to be mediocre he'd probably be the best SS in the game. i am shocked about how bad his defense is. he doesn't get to any balls and he butchers most of them he gets too. it makes no sense he's got all the tools to be a great defensive player

[bkrich83]

Re: Top 10 shortstops in MLB?

I haven't watched Tulowitzki enough but Furcal has the strongest shortstop arm I've ever seen.

I think TT may have more juice even.Furcal does have a hose though. Dunston had a stronger arm than both.