HoF ballot released...

[Stroehms]

Re: HoF ballot released...

Ricky Henderson should be in without any question. No one will ever touch his stolen bases record, that is enough for me, not to mention the other facets of his game.

As for the others, well it's the same played out arguments for guys like Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Jack Morris, and Bert Blyleven. Yes they were all very good players, but when you think of the greats of the game, none of them really come to mind unless you were a fan of their teams. Mark McGwire though is being screwed over by the voters. Yes he used PEDs but they weren't against the rules of MLB at the time, so he really wasn't doing anything wrong by the rules of the game.

+1 Mr. Kind-sir.

McGwire is in my HOF, so he should be in the MLB HOF

[CMH]

Re: HoF ballot released...

I guess for me, I never cared much about the steroids/enhancements/whatever for McGwire because I don't consider him a Hall of Famer.

I don't see anything that great about his career with the exception of hitting close to 600 homeruns.

Maybe if he had other great talents, but he didn't. If your one talent is hitting homeruns and you couldn't even get to the 600+ mark, then were you really that great to begin with? I can't say so.

[EnigmaNemesis]

Re: HoF ballot released...

I guess for me, I never cared much about the steroids/enhancements/whatever for McGwire because I don't consider him a Hall of Famer.

I don't see anything that great about his career with the exception of hitting close to 600 homeruns.

Maybe if he had other great talents, but he didn't. If your one talent is hitting homeruns and you couldn't even get to the 600+ mark, then were you really that great to begin with? I can't say so.

Babe Ruth?

[Stroehms]

Re: HoF ballot released...

Babe Ruth?

Uh, Babe Ruth hit .393 one year and had a career average of .342

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=ruthba01

McGwire didn't have those numbers but he was part of baseball's resurrection.

[rsox]

Re: HoF ballot released...

Plus Babe Ruth was better offensively than whole teams some years.

[Tomahawk]

Re: HoF ballot released...

I guess for me, I never cared much about the steroids/enhancements/whatever for McGwire because I don't consider him a Hall of Famer.

I don't see anything that great about his career with the exception of hitting close to 600 homeruns.

Maybe if he had other great talents, but he didn't. If your one talent is hitting homeruns and you couldn't even get to the 600+ mark, then were you really that great to begin with? I can't say so.

Must be a bunch of not so great guys with below average talents playing baseball the last 100 or so years considering when McGwire retired only Aaron, Ruth, and Mays had ever hit over 600 homers in their career. Saying someone is not great or talented because they didn't hit 600 homers is stretching it quite a bit.

[CMH]

Re: HoF ballot released...

Must be a bunch of not so great guys with below average talents playing baseball the last 100 or so years considering when McGwire retired only Aaron, Ruth, and Mays had ever hit over 600 homers in their career. Saying someone is not great or talented because they didn't hit 600 homers is stretching it quite a bit.

Yes, it is stretching it. I agree.

That being said, Aaron, Ruth, Mays were amazingly talented players. They could have hit 400 homeruns and still have been amazing players. Ted Williams didn't touch the 600 homerun mark and no one holds that against him because he was just an amazing talent.

All I'm trying to say is that McGwire was one-dimensional and I don't see him as a Hall of Famer. 600 homeruns or not, I can't vote for a one-dimensional player.

Also, I never said McGwire wasn't talented. I said he didn't have other talents.

[Stroehms]

Re: HoF ballot released...

Yes, it is stretching it. I agree.

That being said, Aaron, Ruth, Mays were amazingly talented players. They could have hit 400 homeruns and still have been amazing players. Ted Williams didn't touch the 600 homerun mark and no one holds that against him because he was just an amazing talent.

All I'm trying to say is that McGwire was one-dimensional and I don't see him as a Hall of Famer. 600 homeruns or not, I can't vote for a one-dimensional player.

Also, I never said McGwire wasn't talented. I said he didn't have other talents.

He was a Gold Glover.

[CMH]

Re: HoF ballot released...

He was a Gold Glover.

Oh *dagger to the heart*

I do not get involved in Gold Glove discussions.

[Tomahawk]

Re: HoF ballot released...

Oh *dagger to the heart*

I do not get involved in Gold Glove discussions.

So you only acknowledge things that support your side and ignore the facts that might get in the way? Like debating something with a woman that is a sure way to win every time.

[Sandman42]

Re: HoF ballot released...

So you only acknowledge things that support your side and ignore the facts that might get in the way? Like debating something with a woman that is a sure way to win every time.

Gold Glove = most meaningless award in the history of meaningless awards

[Tomahawk]

Re: HoF ballot released...

Gold Glove = most meaningless award in the history of meaningless awards

How about these meaningless talents for McGwire since fielding doesn't matter?

Career Rankings...
On Base Percentage: .394 - 77th best and not bad for a career .263 hitter
Slugging Percentage: .588 - 9th best
OPS: .982 - 11th best

[Sarcasm]Too bad he didn't have Jose Canseco's speed and Nolan Ryan's fastball ..... he could have been a great one.[/Sarcasm]

[Stroehms]

Re: HoF ballot released...

You can't ignore his Slugging and OPS.

How about having extreme success in both leagues?

[Coug00]

Re: HoF ballot released...

How about these meaningless talents for McGwire since fielding doesn't matter?

Career Rankings...
On Base Percentage: .394 - 77th best and not bad for a career .263 hitter
Slugging Percentage: .588 - 9th best
OPS: .982 - 11th best

Its not that fielding doesn't matter, its that Gold Gloves are the most useless award in all of sports. When its no longer a popularity contest and actually awarded based upon someone's play in the field the GG award will become credible.

I'm not a huge fan of taking HR's, OBP, SLG, and OPS and comparing them against players over the last 110 years of baseball. At the end of McGwire's career the game was completely different even from when he entered the league in '87. Apples and Oranges. The best you can do for those kinds of numbers is comparing them against his peers during the same era.
McGwire's HOF Monitor Rating is favorable for him as a HOF'er, however, looking at other's ratings he falls behind players like Piazza, Palmiero, Ichiro. And he's slightly ahead of players like Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Gary Sheffield, Jim Thome, and Larry Walker. Do you think all of those players are Hall worthy?

Its close with Mac...anybody could argue either way and have a very fair argument. Unfortunately for him, he's got the "steroid" stigma hanging over his head.

[CMH]

Who said I was ignoring his other stats? I only said he had one talent and that was hitting homeruns.

Surely, a guy with 600 homeruns is going to have a high SLG and OBP.

He was very good at drawing walks and hitting homeruns. There.

Still don't consider him a Hall of Famer. Very good player? Heck yea. I'd want Mack on my team without a doubt. But I also want Adam Dunn on my team and I don't think he's a potential Hall of Famer.

As for fielding...gosh if we must. Gold Gloves are totally useless. They measure popularity moreso than fielding ability. Mark McGwire might not have been a cement block at 1B, but he wasn't exactly nimble either. I have no arguments against his fielding, though. He was solid enough from what I recall.