The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

[EnigmaNemesis]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

As a Red Sox fan, I couldn't be happier. I have waited for yesterday ever since it became known the Sox had their eye on him a season or two ago.

However, this is just yet another example as to how the MLB is flawed in many ways.

The Padres had a great season last year, and should be poised to add quality big league talent to make another run at it. Instead, they have to trade the face of their franchise away to a big market team.

The business side of baseball is awful. Its unfornuate that a set number of teams will almost always wallow in the cellar, be average year in and year out, or never really have a shot at the World Series.

Its become such a recurring cycle. Small market team drafts a stud. Player develops into a solid MLB player. PLayer plays a few seasons with small market team. Player is then traded for prospects, or lost to free agency because the team can't pay his impending contract.

It totally stinks.

In total agreement.

I have been saying this for more than 15 years, these small market teams are just quadruple A teams for big market teams.

And nothing will change if there is no type of competitive cap in place.

[CardsGamer5]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

Gonzalez is going to mash in Fenway, espicially with all the opposite field homeruns he hits.

[bkrich83]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

Holy crap man. If it bothers you so much, and has for so long, why do you still watch? I understand being upset, but is anyone in here claiming that it's ok just because Sox fans are happy?

Yes Red Sox fans. Mostly to the tune of "yeah it sucks for you, but hey you got 3 of our prospects, so all is good"

That's simply not the case, it's not all good.. This is exactly why interest in baseball is waning. The system is a joke.

I don't blame the large market teams. I blame baseball. Why would I want to follow a team that

A. I know has no shot at winning before the season even starts and has no shot at turning it around long term

B. Every time they get a player that is enjoyable to watch they have to ship him off to another team for prospects. Prospects are just that guys with potential, but the odds they actually pan out are 50/50 at the very best.

But you're right, I should just enjoy the fact that the sport I love so dearly is becoming no fun at all.

[Kearnzo]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

Yes Red Sox fans. Mostly to the tune of "yeah it sucks for you, but hey you got 3 of our prospects, so all is good"

That's simply not the case, it's not all good.. This is exactly why interest in baseball is waning. The system is a joke.

I don't blame the large market teams. I blame baseball. Why would I want to follow a team that

A. I know has no shot at winning before the season even starts and has no shot at turning it around long term

B. Every time they get a player that is enjoyable to watch they have to ship him off to another team for prospects. Prospects are just that guys with potential, but the odds they actually pan out are 50/50 at the very best.

But you're right, I should just enjoy the fact that the sport I love so dearly is becoming no fun at all.

Don't recall saying that, but hey, if you're gonna put words in my mouth, so be it. There are ignorant fans in every sport, and speaking as part of the Red Sox fanbase, yeah, there are a whole hell of a lot of them.

Like I said before, I do agree with you about the bigger picture. The fact that the Rays are going to be blown up irks me to no end, as it was nice having two legitimate rivals in the AL East. But alas, as usual, it will wind up being a Yankees/Red Sox battle for the division again, with the loser likely taking the wildcard.

It was nice seeing a team like the Rays rise up from a lower payroll by drafting great and having all of their prospects pan out. However, the chances of that happening again are extremely slim, as it took numerous number 1 overall picks and a string of good luck with those prospects panning out to get to the World Series.

And yes, I am happy to get Gonzalez. I'm obviously going to root for my team picking up arguably one of the top 10 players in baseball. I do however see the other side of things, as if I were a Padres fan, I wouldn't be happy with having to wait for all these prospects to pan out, if they do at all.

[bkrich83]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

Don't recall saying that, but hey, if you're gonna put words in my mouth, so be it. There are ignorant fans in every sport, and speaking as part of the Red Sox fanbase, yeah, there are a whole hell of a lot of them.

Like I said before, I do agree with you about the bigger picture. The fact that the Rays are going to be blown up irks me to no end, as it was nice having two legitimate rivals in the AL East. But alas, as usual, it will wind up being a Yankees/Red Sox battle for the division again, with the loser likely taking the wildcard.

It was nice seeing a team like the Rays rise up from a lower payroll by drafting great and having all of their prospects pan out. However, the chances of that happening again are extremely slim, as it took numerous number 1 overall picks and a string of good luck with those prospects panning out to get to the World Series.

And yes, I am happy to get Gonzalez. I'm obviously going to root for my team picking up arguably one of the top 10 players in baseball. I do however see the other side of things, as if I were a Padres fan, I wouldn't be happy with having to wait for all these prospects to pan out, if they do at all.

Here's my problem with it as well. Let's say they do pan out. As they hit their prime we're just going to repeat the same drill.

I don't blame Sox fans for being happy. My problem is when I am fed what is obviously a crap sandwich I don't need Sox fans telling me it's prime rib. We all know Padres fans just took it in the shorts yet again. Telling me otherwise is insulting. Especially coming from a fanbase who have not one iota of a clue as to what it's like on the other side of the fence.

Again I don't blame big market teams. I blame baseball. Big market teams are what appear to be the problem but they are certainly not the root cause of my issues.

[CabreraMVP]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

I think Gonzalez is really going to struggle at first. It seems like everybody has done that when going from the NL to the NL recently.

Cabrera in 2008, Matt Holliday in 2009.

They both hit .280, 10 HR, 45 RBI in their first halves in the new League. Cabrera finished with 127 RBI. Holliday was on fire his last week with the A's before being traded to St. Louis.

It just seems like a typical thing. New league, big contract, huge expectations. He will probably struggle out of the gate, the sky will fall, then he heats up and puts himself into MVP considerations.

I was on a Yankee board, and they mentioned how awful Gonzalez is agaisnt AL teams. His numbers are horrible in AL parks, most of them are around .200. He is too good of a hitter to stay that way, but I do think there will be rough adjustment period.

I really like him though. Him and Cabrera might be my two favorite players. I imagine the MVP race is between these two guys, for the next decade or so. Lol.

[JBH3]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

I think Gonzalez is really going to struggle at first. It seems like everybody has done that when going from the NL to the NL recently.

Cabrera in 2008, Matt Holliday in 2009.

They both hit .280, 10 HR, 45 RBI in their first halves in the new League. Cabrera finished with 127 RBI. Holliday was on fire his last week with the A's before being traded to St. Louis.

It just seems like a typical thing. New league, big contract, huge expectations. He will probably struggle out of the gate, the sky will fall, then he heats up and puts himself into MVP considerations.

I was on a Yankee board, and they mentioned how awful Gonzalez is agaisnt AL teams. His numbers are horrible in AL parks, most of them are around .200. He is too good of a hitter to stay that way, but I do think there will be rough adjustment period.

I really like him though. Him and Cabrera might be my two favorite players. I imagine the MVP race is between these two guys, for the next decade or so. Lol.

He's a .286 hitter in 77 inter-league games, w/15 HRs and 36 RBI. Factors to consider would be that in 2010 the Pads were 22nd in OBP, while the BoSox were 3rd. So one could only imagine the RBI opps would jump up, then you consider the park factors of Petco -vs- Fenway, and it's hard to NOT imagine a monster mash year for AGon.

By all accounts Miggy and Holiday left greener pastures in the NL. Miggy left a better offensive Florida team, for DET. Then Holliday left hitter friendly Coors, to hitter hell Oakland.

[CabreraMVP]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

Well Cabrera definitely didn't have much help. He had Ramirez for 2 years, and a developing Uggla for 2 years, but the majority of the time there it was just him and Willingham wasn't it? Or Lowell? Very little depth in those teams.They weren't a great offensive team, big ballpark.

I always feel bad for Gonzalez. The guy hit hit .400 with RISP and barely reached 100 RBI. And before that, he would drive in 99 even though he hit .280 with 40 HR.

[JBH3]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

Well Cabrera definitely didn't have much help. He had Ramirez for 2 years, and a developing Uggla for 2 years, but the majority of the time there it was just him and Willingham wasn't it? Or Lowell? Very little depth in those teams.They weren't a great offensive team, big ballpark.

I always feel bad for Gonzalez. The guy hit hit .400 with RISP and barely reached 100 RBI. And before that, he would drive in 99 even though he hit .280 with 40 HR.

The Tigers only scored 51 more runs than the Marlins in 2008 (1st year without Cabrera), and that's having a DH for what 140 games?

[Kobalt]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

He's a .286 hitter in 77 inter-league games, w/15 HRs and 36 RBI. Factors to consider would be that in 2010 the Pads were 22nd in OBP, while the BoSox were 3rd. So one could only imagine the RBI opps would jump up, then you consider the park factors of Petco -vs- Fenway, and it's hard to NOT imagine a monster mash year for AGon.

By all accounts Miggy and Holiday left greener pastures in the NL. Miggy left a better offensive Florida team, for DET. Then Holliday left hitter friendly Coors, to hitter hell Oakland.

Comerica isn't also really a hitters park. Cabrera just makes that stadium look small.

[JBH3]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

Comerica isn't also really a hitters park. Cabrera just makes that stadium look small.

Exactly...which would further explain a drop in production intelligently, rather than just saying he has to adjust to a new league; that's not meant as a cutdown to you CabreraMVP.

[CabreraMVP]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

The Tigers only scored 51 more runs than the Marlins in 2008 (1st year without Cabrera), and that's having a DH for what 140 games?

Meh. The Tigers were probably the worst offensive team in the first half of 08. They hit like hell in the second half to finish in the top 5 in the AL.

Still though, the Marlins never had a real great lineup. They always had a big ballpark. Cabrera has never really hit in a great lineup yet. The past two years he was a lone wolf and still carried the Tigers into contention through the summer. Comerica is also one of the most notorious hitters parks in baseball.

He drew an AL record 32 IBB last year, and still drove in 126. That is 32 times where he wasn't able to hit with RISP. The bat taken out of his hands. In the second half, the guy hitting behind him hit .100. He did it on his own.

In 2006: .339/26HR/114 RBI. He drew 24 Intentional walks.

In 2007: .320/34HR/119 RBI. He drew 27 intentional walks.

In 2009: .328/38HR/126 RBI. He drew 32 intentional walks.

That's nearly half of his career. That is a ton of intentional walks, which shows he clearly didn't have a great lineup. Maybe a capable offense, but far short of great. Even other years, he drew 12, 14, etc. intentional walks. That's a pretty good amount.

He has never had a great lineup, except for 60 games his rookie year and the 2nd half of 2008. Other than that, its been an average lineup, or a horrible lineup, in a pitchers park.

I always see Yankee fans compare him to Teixeria. Even though Cabrera's numbers are better overall, I always tell them one thing. If Cabrera hit those Yankee or deep Texas lineups like Tex did, and he did it in those ballparks, he would routinely drive in 140.

The numbers he put up as a young kid down in Florida are amazing considering the circumstances. He's never had a real 'great' offense to support him, and he's always played in pitchers parks. But when you compare him to any other hitter since he made his debut, very few have better numbers. He was just like Pujols. Hit from the second the stepped on a major league field.

I just saw your edited post. By adjust, I just mean get used to the league, simple thing really but I think it effects hitters. You're seeing pitchers you have never reall faced before, you are trying to live up a 125 million dollar contract in Gonzalez case. That's why Cabrera was so bad the first few months as a Tiger. He went from Florida, and 10,000 fans every night, to Detroit where every game had 40k plus, and he had the biggest contract in Tigers history to live up to. It takes a while to get comfortable.

I'm not saying Gonzalez will suck all the first half. I just dont think he will the the normal Adrian Gonzalez we are used at the start. Playing with a new team, agaisnt new pitchers, and new ballparks, its a change. I think that played a big role in Holliday's and Cabrera's struggles as they switched leagues.

[EnigmaNemesis]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

Well it looks like A-Gon will get number 23.

Cameron is a good fellow, and just wants him to donate some money to the Boys & Girls Club.

Good deal.

Gonzo wants No. 23 in Boston, too. But that the property of Mike Cameron and under the unwritten rules of baseball etiquette, he is under no obligation to give it up.

"I have 15 years in this league," Cameron said by phone from his home in Georgia. "They can't just take it from me."

But Mike is a reasonable fellow. He didn't even want 23, having worn 25 or 44 for most of his career. But Mike Lowell had 25 and wanted to keep it and Cameron didn't want to take 44, knowing that Jason Bay had worn it in 2009.

"That would have just started trouble," he said.

Now Cameron is willing to take 44 and give up 23 to Gonzalez. But there will have to be a little tribute.

"He's going to have 160 million ways to make me happy," Cameron said, laughing. "No, that's not me. I'll have him make a little donation to the Boys & Girls Club."

Cameron and Gonzalez played together in San Diego from 2006-07. Cameron predicts big things for the first baseman at Fenway Park.

"It's a perfect park for him because he can go to the other way or go down the line in right," Cameron said. "The guy is an all-around good player and he's going to make a big difference for us."

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2010/12/gonzo_and_camer.html

[Dispatch]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

Thats a nice gesture by Cameron. I'm sure he didn't have a problem giving up the number anyways, and he helps out a great organization at the same time.

[CWood2]

Re: The Adrian Gonzalez Saga

What good is a great farm system if you can keep them after you develop them. Drafting well is obviously important. But that doesn't make it any less disheartening when that player has to go because your team can't or won't be able to compete financially for their services when they hitbtheir prime.

At this point you might as well designate teams like the Padres as AAAA teams because all they are doing is developing talent for teams with no limit on their payroll.

Baseball just isn't fun anymore. And this inequity is the main reason why.

Harold Reynolds is right it is a sad day for baseball. One of many over the last several years. The Padres will not see another dime from me. Why would I give them any of my hard earned money?

The indightment shouldn't be on Major League Baseball if you dislike the direction of your hometown team.

The point missed is that a deep farm system means you have a nucleus for the future that is cost controlled. You call up a young stud, and you've got 5 or 6 years before you have to pay them. The Pads didn't draft Adrian Gonzalez. And by comparison, if you're a Rays fan, you're letting Crawford, Soriano and Pena walk. But guess what ... Desmond Jennings is ready to be a star, Jeremy Hellickson is already a star, and another group of young talent will offset the free agent losses to a decent extent.

Teams can win without huge payrolls, as evident by a near playoff appearance last year by your boys in beige. They'll be back, BK.