The Barry Bonds Trial

[Chip Douglass]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

None of these guys broke any rules according to MLB so no league punishment

Baseball officially banned steroids in 1991.

[12]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

I'm cool with agreeing to disagree and I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but the reason I wanted to separate the "issues" is bc I feel like that's how these discussions get mucked up. For example, I believe you and I agree on the steroid era... 100% actually. When I say "nobody cared" what I'm really saying is that MLB really supported the steroid area bc of the results, players didn't worry about them being illegal bc it was clear there was no punishment, and the majority of fans had no idea or were grouped as just conspiracy theorists on par with the "juiced ball" folk.

In that sense, yes they are being crucified by the public, media and purists. You say "nobody's talking about" player "x" but that's bc there's nothing for them to say. Nobody's talking about Clemens right now either... but they will be soon. When guys "come clean" what else is there for anyone to say? All they can say is "they better not get in the HOF" which will be said once ARod's chance at Cooperstown comes up (and any other player you want to mention, be it Pettitte, Palmeiro, etc.). If this prevents any of these people from getting in the HOF then they are being crucified for it. If they weren't good enough to get in anyway, that doesn't change the perception, it just makes them less relevant. Like you, I'm fine with a juicer that comes clean... my point with that was that Bonds and Clemens have issues bc they already lied to congress. Coming clean doesn't do the same for them as it did for others. It's a separate issue to the steroid talk. They could get locked up for lying... doesn't matter what they actually lied about.

We can disagree on whether or not Bonds knew he was taking roids or not but I'll tell you, personally I try to check myself before assuming what someone else knows or was thinking when I know so little about them personally. I think Bonds knew, but I don't think it's crazy to believe he didn't. Today players take stuff to "look" and "feel" different like you said he should've recognized. Today there are things that are legal that are probably as "dangerous" as steroids if used improperly. The line of what is allowed and what was allowed is a lot smaller than I think some think. Players take stuff that works. Being "allowed" by the MLB or "legal" in the country are things considered, of course, but for those reasons... not for reasons of health so much. So if the "allowed" area is gray and the "legal" area is ignored by the league, then why is it hard to believe that a player wouldn't be as diligent as you'd expect them to be in TODAY'S world?



I kind of grouped my response to this in the last post. To summarize A)the MLB wouldn't turn a blind eye to murder... they did to steroids. Even with that memo, we all know the MLB didn't care about steroids until congress got involved, and that was really to protect the health of kids playing at lower levels more than anything, not records. B) What it means to you and me (it means the same thing to me as you, btw) doesn't matter. Here's a better example than "murder"... if Clinton admitted to "inhaling", he wouldn't have been punished by the law for illegal acts years ago. When he was in college, such illegal acts weren't exactly accepted but everyone knew that there'd be very little to no punishment for doing them.



Again, I agree with you on this. I do believe we are in the minority though.

After reading this, it's become clear to me that we agree on more things than we disagree on.

[wwharton]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

Baseball officially banned steroids in 1991.

And exceeding the speed limit is illegal. Neither mean much (or meant much in terms of the steroids being banned by MLB in 91... means something now).

After reading this, it's become clear to me that we agree on more things than we disagree on.

Yeah, lol. That's why I wrote that long book of a post... don't think I was finding the right way to say what I meant before.

[Blzer]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

So how's the trial going?

[EnigmaNemesis]

And exceeding the speed limit is illegal. Neither mean much (or meant much in terms of the steroids being banned by MLB in 91... means something now).

Yes illegal. Just like steroids are illegal. Both mean fines and/or jail time. Far from "nothing".

MLB is not above the law.

[wwharton]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

Yes illegal. Just like steroids are illegal. Both mean fines and/or jail time. Far from "nothing".

MLB is not above the law.

Really? lol. The ABSOLUTE worse for speeding is a small fine. More often it's a warning. FAR more often, you don't get caught. There's a reason why 90% of the people on the highway feel comfortable doing it. Even those that don't probably aren't withstanding because of fear of being pulled over... unless they've already been caught before and may face a harsher fate.

This was the reality of steroids in the MLB during the time Bonds is said to have done them. At worse, there was danger of a fine for breaking the law (not jail time). More often, there was danger of a smack on the wrist by MLB and likely swept under the rug. FAR more often, the players wouldn't get caught... even when shooting needles in each other in the locker room. And again, those who didn't do it had higher moral standards, respected the integrity of the game or had some other reason but I promise you none of them decided not to because of fear of being caught.

[EnigmaNemesis]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

Worst for speeding a small fine?

My buddy was clocked in his 550HP '08 Corvette on the Jersey Pike at 159MPH. He was slowing down too, it was 1AM on his way back from New York, and as he was slowing down to get on the off ramp, the cop caught up and pulled him over.

The cop told him he could have arrested him and impounded the car, and he could have faced jail time. But for the fact that the highway was clear and it was 1AM, he was basically lucky that he let him slide. (and the cop did not put his lights on until the last minute as he caught up, so my buddy didn't run with the obviously faster car... thus the cop did something illegal as well)

The Judge told him, he could have went to jail for 30 days, but was being lenient (my buddy works for a large law firm consultant group, so it helped), instead he had to pay over $1000 in fines. Plus lawyer fees.

Needless to say he has the ticket framed in his man-cave, since you usually never get off without arrest with tickets over 100MPH, especially in Jersey.

The bottom line, I do not know why we are arguing over the legality. The point is, steroids are illegal Federally. Bonds had tested positive in the reports, thus they are trying to prove he lied to the grand jury (about knowingly taking them), which is also illegal. His only defense is, "stupid is stupid does"!

And as heavy as they were using them, it would be considered a "drug rink", and trust me, if it wasn't for the fact that they were MLB players, and they were just local meat heads at a gym, there would have been a huge sting operation and jail time and plea bargains would be served.

Look, as I stated before, I do not care that he took them. A lot of players did, and a lot in the past would have also if they were available. But do not argue that this is something that is not against the law in the sense where he should not be on trial for it. He dug his own hole. If he would have just manned up, instead of being so stubborn, he would not be going through this.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

Prosecution rested today. I don't think they did enough.

Well, other than drag out some juicy info about backne, shrinking testicles, and certain performance issues.

[24]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

I always have been and always will be a Barry Bonds supporter. He was a fantastic player before the PED's and he never ceased to amaze me. I always enjoyed watching him play the game. I understand that what he did was wrong but nevertheless i still have a good deal of respect towards the man. he puts up with quite alot and has been through hell and back over a simple game that is meant to be enjoyed. I hope that he live the rest of his life with some semblance of peace and that eventually he gets inducted to the hall of fame. Tainted or not all of these guys (Bonds, Sosa McGwrie, Rodriguez etc) had a large impact on the game and baseball would not be the same with out it

[12]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

I always have been and always will be a Barry Bonds supporter. He was a fantastic player before the PED's and he never ceased to amaze me. I always enjoyed watching him play the game. I understand that what he did was wrong but nevertheless i still have a good deal of respect towards the man. he puts up with quite alot and has been through hell and back over a simple game that is meant to be enjoyed. I hope that he live the rest of his life with some semblance of peace and that eventually he gets inducted to the hall of fame. Tainted or not all of these guys (Bonds, Sosa McGwrie, Rodriguez etc) had a large impact on the game and baseball would not be the same with out it

To each their own.

My opinion is that these guys did have a huge impact on the game, but it was not necessarily a good one. The sanctity of the game was tested here and the game lost a lot of fans. I know some people will say that's too extreme of a statement, but again it's just my opinion and in my eyes it's true.

Most everything Bonds has put up with has been self-inflicted, so I fail at trying to find some sense of sympathy for the man. He was a great player and I'll never deny that. He is a Hall of Fame caliber player with or without the steroids.

I still think this trial was a waste of time. In the end, I think we'll see that it accomplished nothing. I hope I'm wrong and it will serve as some sort of deterrent for young kids and players who might think about taking PEDs.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

Well, the Bonds team must be pretty confident. Feds dropped 1 of the 5 cases. Then the defense rests without calling a witness.

In the jury's hands now. He walks IMO.

[wwharton]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

Worst for speeding a small fine?

My buddy was clocked in his 550HP '08 Corvette on the Jersey Pike at 159MPH. He was slowing down too, it was 1AM on his way back from New York, and as he was slowing down to get on the off ramp, the cop caught up and pulled him over.

The cop told him he could have arrested him and impounded the car, and he could have faced jail time. But for the fact that the highway was clear and it was 1AM, he was basically lucky that he let him slide. (and the cop did not put his lights on until the last minute as he caught up, so my buddy didn't run with the obviously faster car... thus the cop did something illegal as well)

The Judge told him, he could have went to jail for 30 days, but was being lenient (my buddy works for a large law firm consultant group, so it helped), instead he had to pay over $1000 in fines. Plus lawyer fees.

Needless to say he has the ticket framed in his man-cave, since you usually never get off without arrest with tickets over 100MPH, especially in Jersey.

The bottom line, I do not know why we are arguing over the legality. The point is, steroids are illegal Federally. Bonds had tested positive in the reports, thus they are trying to prove he lied to the grand jury (about knowingly taking them), which is also illegal. His only defense is, "stupid is stupid does"!

And as heavy as they were using them, it would be considered a "drug rink", and trust me, if it wasn't for the fact that they were MLB players, and they were just local meat heads at a gym, there would have been a huge sting operation and jail time and plea bargains would be served.

Look, as I stated before, I do not care that he took them. A lot of players did, and a lot in the past would have also if they were available. But do not argue that this is something that is not against the law in the sense where he should not be on trial for it. He dug his own hole. If he would have just manned up, instead of being so stubborn, he would not be going through this.

No offense, but we're debating these little details bc you questioned my analogy...

Your friend got stopped for reckless driving, a much worse charge than "speeding". And even with that insane idea to go 160 MPH he still got off! So I'm not really sure how that's disproving my example.

And drug rings are related to dealers, not users. You don't hear about swat teams busting up crack houses. If there were any kind of "sting" would be after the suppliers, not any local meat heads. Legally, nobody cares whether or not Bonds used steroids. Hell, MLB doesn't even care. He's ONLY on trial for lying to the grand jury, and any other negative feelings about him (besides his crappy personality) is from purists and related to the record books.

Maybe because you want to look down on these players more; maybe because you have a heightened sense of law (good for you if this is the case)... but you're looking at the "drug" part of this as being MUCH bigger than it really is and ever was.

[EnigmaNemesis]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

I never once said I look down on them at all... nor I ever gave that impression. I honestly feel even the old time players would have taken them if they were told the same benefits would happen.

I was just discussing the legality of it all. And they are federally illegal, no matter if 5 or 500 took them. It does not make it any less relevant... and if the MLB did nothing to curb it, obviously the federal government had to get involved to get them to act.

[polelover44]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

Honestly I'm just getting tired of the whole thing. It's pretty clear to me now that Bonds will be acquitted, even though everyone knows he did perjure himself.


What I'm more interested in is how they got an impartial jury. It's pretty amazing that even just .000004% of America is impartial as to whether or not Barry Bonds took steroids.

[wwharton]

Re: The Barry Bonds Trial

I never once said I look down on them at all... nor I ever gave that impression. I honestly feel even the old time players would have taken them if they were told the same benefits would happen.

I was just discussing the legality of it all. And they are federally illegal, no matter if 5 or 500 took them. It does not make it any less relevant... and if the MLB did nothing to curb it, obviously the federal government had to get involved to get them to act.

And I never said they weren't illegal so I'm still kind of wondering why you replied to me.

I know this sounds a bit confrontational with just text so let me say that it's not. I'm just not really following where you were going. Yes it's illegal... yes, so is speeding. My point was that both are illegal but the punishment for both (talking about steroids at the time) wasn't anywhere near harsh enough to be a deterrent. I'm not sure what you're saying to dispute that.