MVP/CY/ROY Talk

[NYJets]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Cabrera is having a great year.

There is no good argument for him to beat out Trout for MVP.

Even if your somebody who hasn't bought into WAR, people should be able to recognize the impact Trout makes in the field and on the base paths, just from watching the games. That should make the difference when their offensive numbers are so close. Basing it on the Triple Crown is absurd to me. Even the most old school baseball guy should be able to see this.

[mgoblue678]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Cabrera is having a great year.

There is no good argument for him to beat out Trout for MVP.

Even if your somebody who hasn't bought into WAR, people should be able to recognize the impact Trout makes in the field and on the base paths, just from watching the games. That should make the difference when their offensive numbers are so close. Basing it on the Triple Crown is absurd to me. Even the most old school baseball guy should be able to see this.

There is a reason the triple crown hasn't been won since 1967, and why the list who have is full of Hall of Fame players. Look, I understand the argument for Trout and don't disagree with it at all, but I wouldnt' call the writers recognizing such a rare feat with an MVP award absurd by any stretch. Sabermetric guys trying to downplay the sigficance of doing something only accomplished by 15 players in the history of the game seems just as absurd. I don't discount stats like WAR at all, but some people go way overboard and seem to forgot their flaws as well.

As far as your statement about watching the games, let me ask you a question? How many games of each guy have you personally seen? Personally, I haven't seen Trout play as much as Cabrera, so I am not going to sit there and use that as an argument. The whole watching the games argument isn't really valid unless the person argueing it or using it as a basis for their vote has seen 100+ games of each guy. I doubt very few writers can claim they have.

IMO, which are the key words here, is I wish they could be Co-MVPS. They have both had incrediable years, all be it in somewhat different ways. Not to mention like I said it is fun to debate individual awards, but at the end of the day they mean very little besides to the player themself. Both Trout and Cabrera are team players, so I doubt either guy would take much solace in winning the award if neither wins a WS title. No reason to get riled up either way, both guys will probally be Hall of Famers with or without MVP trophies.

[NYJets]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

There is a reason the triple crown hasn't been won since 1967, and why the list who have is full of Hall of Fame players. Look, I understand the argument for Trout and don't disagree with it at all, but I wouldnt' call the writers recognizing such a rare feat with an MVP award absurd by any stretch. Sabermetric guys trying to downplay the sigficance of doing something only accomplished by 15 players in the history of the game seems just as absurd.

As far as your statement about watching the games, let me ask you a question? How many games of each guy have you personally seen? Personally, I haven't seen Trout play as much as Cabrera, so I am not going to sit there and use that as an argument. The whole watching the games argument isn't really valid unless the person argueing it or using it as a basis for their vote has seen 100+ of each guy.

IMO, which are the key words here, is I wish they could be Co-MVPS. They have both had incrediable years, all be it in somewhat different ways. Not to mention like I said it is fun to debate individual awards, but at the end of the day they mean very little besides to the player themself. Both Trout and Cabrera are team players, so I doubt either guy would take much solace in winning the award if neither won wins a WS title.

There are lots of things in baseball that are rare. The season that Trout is having is rare. Just because Cabrera's season happens to have a fancy name for it doesn't make it more impressive. Didn't say a Triple Crown isn't tough to do,or that you don't have to be a great player to accomplish it. But it's who's having the best year this year. Past years have nothing to do with it.

You don't have to watch the games, there are stats to show Trout has been better. My point is that this has been painted as a traditional vs. Sabermetric debate, and I don't see it that way. Do traditionalists not care about stolen bases? Do they not care about defense? Yes, WAR shows that Trout deserves it. But even without WAR, it should be obvious.

Your last point I agree, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. But this is the internet and on the internet we like to argue about this stupid ****.

[rdnk]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Comparing Trout to Cabrera is tough because they are such different kinds of players and they are used differently. WAR is probably the best tool we have, but it is not perfect. We also don't know what the voters are thinking, they may have some other agenda or ideas in why one is more deserving than the other.

Look at Justin Verlander. He leads all pitchers in WAR (he is worth 1 more win than King Felix, who is in 2nd). He has more than twice the WAR than Weaver and worth over 1.8 wins more than Price. So maybe he should be talked about more for winning the AL Cy Young?

[mgoblue678]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Comparing Trout to Cabrera is tough because they are such different kinds of players and they are used differently. WAR is probably the best tool we have, but it is not perfect. We also don't know what the voters are thinking, they may have some other agenda or ideas in why one is more deserving than the other.

Look at Justin Verlander. He leads all pitchers in WAR (he is worth 1 more win than King Felix, who is in 2nd). He has more than twice the WAR than Weaver and worth over 1.8 wins more than Price. So maybe he should be talked about more for winning the AL Cy Young?

Good point, but to fair I have heard quite a bit of chatter about Verlander and the Cy Young after his last couple of starts. His numbers are aren't too far off from where they were last year, and obviously we know his W/L not being as good is a pretty much meaningless from a metric standpoint. Maybe Miggy should be returning the favor and campaigning hard for Verlander, like Verlander is for him. At the end of the day though, both guys are more concerned with the team going deep into the playoffs, than individual awards.

[Sportsforever]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

There is a reason the triple crown hasn't been won since 1967, and why the list who have is full of Hall of Fame players. Look, I understand the argument for Trout and don't disagree with it at all, but I wouldnt' call the writers recognizing such a rare feat with an MVP award absurd by any stretch. Sabermetric guys trying to downplay the sigficance of doing something only accomplished by 15 players in the history of the game seems just as absurd. I don't discount stats like WAR at all, but some people go way overboard and seem to forgot their flaws as well.

As far as your statement about watching the games, let me ask you a question? How many games of each guy have you personally seen? Personally, I haven't seen Trout play as much as Cabrera, so I am not going to sit there and use that as an argument. The whole watching the games argument isn't really valid unless the person argueing it or using it as a basis for their vote has seen 100+ games of each guy. I doubt very few writers can claim they have.

IMO, which are the key words here, is I wish they could be Co-MVPS. They have both had incrediable years, all be it in somewhat different ways. Not to mention like I said it is fun to debate individual awards, but at the end of the day they mean very little besides to the player themself. Both Trout and Cabrera are team players, so I doubt either guy would take much solace in winning the award if neither wins a WS title. No reason to get riled up either way, both guys will probally be Hall of Famers with or without MVP trophies.

I don't think it's so much that people are trying to down play the Triple Crown as folks are trying to point out how rare this season is Trout has had. You say 15 people have won the Triple Crown, but did you know that Trout is the FIRST player in history to have 30+ HR's, 45+ SB's, and 100+ runs scored in a season?

[snepp]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Verlander is the favorite amongst people I discuss baseball with.

[Sportsforever]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Verlander is the favorite amongst people I discuss baseball with.

Verlander has actually been as good if not better than he was last year minus the gaudy W-L record. His defense hasn't helped him at all...I would have no problem if he won the CY again.

[Bellsprout]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

After this past off-season Braun would have had to have hit .425 with 80 homers and 225 RBI to win the MVP, so anybody who predicted that is going to be wrong.

I'm not saying that's right, obviously he's the star player for my favorite team, but that's just how it is.

[Chip Douglass]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

I don't think it's so much that people are trying to down play the Triple Crown as folks are trying to point out how rare this season is Trout has had. You say 15 people have won the Triple Crown, but did you know that Trout is the FIRST player in history to have 30+ HR's, 45+ SB's, and 100+ runs scored in a season?

Seriously.

If people would get over "Triple Crown!!!!!!", they would realize that this is a typical Miguel Cabrera hitting season (and arguably the 3rd best of his career). The guy in historically rarefied air is Trout. When's the last time a rookie was, hands down, the best player in baseball? Ted Williams?

[Mo]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Now, I'm no big fancy stat guy, but Alfonso Soriano for MVP or Gold Glove or Comeback.


I'll hang up and listen to your response.

[55]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

Now, I'm no big fancy stat guy, but Alfonso Soriano for MVP or Gold Glove or Comeback.


I'll hang up and listen to your response.

Zero chance at MVP or comeback.

Made an out 68% of the time and has a WAR under 2. Ryan Braun's season (WAR of 7) craps all over that.

It also doesn't help that he plays on a team that lost 100 games this year.

And Posey is clearly the comeback player. Not a doubt about it.

[Mo]

And without Soriano the Cubs would have lost 130 games.

I mean have you _actually_ seen The Cubs or Soriano at All this Year?

And if we're bringing in team accomplishments to discredit a guy, then Miguel Cabrera is the MVP. I mean I don't see Trout's team making the playoffs.

[55]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

And without Soriano the Cubs would have lost 130 games.

That's an exaggeration of epic proportions.

Without Soriano they would have lost exactly 2 more games than they did with a replacement level player in his place.

And Trout's team might not have made the postseason, but they were 2 games away from getting in. Without Trout they would have been 12.5 games away from getting in. The Cubs were a flat out joke this year. Apples and oranges.

Ryan Braun, Andrew McCutchen and Buster Posey are the only legitimate candidates for NL MVP this year IMO. Yadier Molina and David Wright are in the next tier. And then there are about 15-20 more guys before you get to where Soriano is and rightfully so. You are overrating the season he had so much it is ridiculous.

Hell, Votto had triple the value that Soriano did this year and he missed a third of the season.

[Perfect Zero]

Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk

The wrong way to use WAR is to use it as an actual way of determining wins.