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Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk
Soriano being the MVP has about as much merit as goh's calls for Andy Lee to be NFL MVP or the notion that Peyton Manning or Jay Cutler should have been MVP by subtraction.Comment
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Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk
<url> LMFAO. </url>Comment
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Obviously it's not an exact science. You can't say with any certainty that the Cubs would have lost exactly 2 more games. No amount of statistics, can predict without a doubt what would have happened in a given year because we'll never know what would have happened to prove it.Originally posted by G PericoComment
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Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk
Another thing that occurred to me about the Triple Crown: Cabrera actually has the 3rd highest average in the majors behind Posey and McCutchen. I know it is all based on AL or NL, but it just shows how random it is. For example, does winning the Triple Crown of the NL East mean anything?
The Triple Crown is cool because to do it you have to hit for average, hit for power, and drive in runners, but it is an arbitrary cutoff."People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers HornsbyComment
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Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk
I don't concern myself with WAR but clearly Trout is incredibly valuable. He is having a ridiculous season and if you have kept up with the season at all, once he arrived, that team changed.
Cabrera having a good year, but Trout having a ridiculous season.Comment
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Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk
Exactly. You can't say that the Angels would have ten fewer wins without Mike Trout or the Rangers would have five fewer wins without Yu Darvish. WAR is one of those fuzzy stats that should be more of a barometer of play than concrete fact. Other stats such as OPS are much more effective.Rangers - Cowboys - Aggies - Stars - Mavericks
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Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk
Well, the wins are relative to a replacement player, hence "wins above replacement".
If you want to measure offensive ability, without accounting for baserunning, park, or league, then yes, OPS is more effective. OPS only measures one facet of the game and does so crudely, for the reasons stated above. And certainly, there are more comprehensive stats that do a better job of accounting for the totality of a player's offensive contributions than OPS - OPS+, which adjusts for park and league (Trout leads the AL in OPS+, btw), wOBA (basically a refined OPS that accounts for stolen bases; Trout also leads here), wRC+ (wOBA adjusted for park; Trout again leads here).WAR is one of those fuzzy stats that should be more of a barometer of play than concrete fact. Other stats such as OPS are much more effective.
I agree that WAR is not meant for uber specificity. I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing for Braun over Posey because Fangraphs has Braun worth .3 more wins to his team relative to a replacement player than Posey is to his team. WAR has its downfalls (the volatility of UZR, for instance); but it's very useful as a general tool and a brief snapshot, IMO, since it attempts to account for a player's total contributions to his team. Trout not having any equals in WAR clearly reflects his all-around dominance this season. The guy quite literally does everything at an elite level. He's the Sir Thomas More of baseball; he's a man for all seasons.Last edited by Chip Douglass; 10-02-2012, 03:39 PM.I write things on the Internet.
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Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk
I have generally found that people are usually not in favor of statistics that don't say what they want them to. On the other hand, they'll cling to that one flawed statistic that validates their point of view all day long. The honest approach would be to look at everything together, SABR stuff plus traditional stuff, and drawing conclusions from a pretty good sample instead of a snap shot."People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers HornsbyComment
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My thing is just the specificity, as mentioned before. I do believe that WAR can show a player as more valuable than another, and also believe Trout to be more valuable than Miggy, but I can't say with any certainty that he is worth any specific number of wins.Originally posted by G PericoComment
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Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk
It's funny that I suggest stats (plural, not singular) like OPS, and then get treated as if I think that's the only thing that should be used when determining a player's worth. The SABR-wars are hilarious.
My problem with WAR as a be all, end all stat is this: What is the formula? Seriously, I want to know what formula is used to come up with WAR. It would be the first time I've ever seen it. I'm not saying we should dismiss it; it's a tool to come up with classes of players. However, to use it as a defining stat or to suggest it shows the exact number of wins a player has over a replacement player without controlling the "replacement" is short-sighted.Last edited by Perfect Zero; 10-02-2012, 04:27 PM.Rangers - Cowboys - Aggies - Stars - Mavericks
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Re: MVP/CY/ROY Talk
Only one person did that. Others who have been talking WAR have acknowledged that.
The formulas can be found at whatever site you are getting your WAR number from. (Here is how baseball-reference comes up with WAR for batters) The 3 main calculators of the stat have slight variations. No one ever said it's a perfect stat, but it sure is a convenient one that take most everything into effect.
I'm not sure why this always has to be turned into some kind of us vs. them thing. All stats should be used in the proper context.Last edited by ImTellinTim; 10-02-2012, 04:39 PM.Comment
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