MLB Off-Topic

[Sportsforever]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

So let's play, here.

How is there more strategy in the AL vs. NL? It's certainly not from the lineup...it's purely what pitcher to put in what situation.

Let me start by saying I prefer the NL brand of ball. It stems from the fact that I don't like the slippery slope of specialization and my favorite team is an NL team.

That said, I would argue the AL manager has MORE strategy to deal with. Why? Because most of the moves in the NL are "duh" moves. Pinch hit for my pitcher late in the game? My 7 year old can figure that out! Bunt a runner over with the pitcher up? Makes sense. In the AL, every hitter is a "hitter", so calling for the bunt isn't always "automatic". Furthermore, since your pitcher's spot never comes up, you are strictly using matchups/fatigue/stuff to determine when to pull him instead of pulling him because his spot is coming up in the order.

Just my .02...

[Speedy]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I NEVER said there was more strategy. You made it seem like there is no strategy in the American League. Which I said is completely false.

I was piggy backing off of Sox's post that there is potentially more strategy in the AL vs. NL which I just disagree with.

I do think the DH does take away strategy. It's not often a pinch hitter comes up in the AL, right? Certainly rare to see a double switch too.

[Speedy]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Let me start by saying I prefer the NL brand of ball. It stems from the fact that I don't like the slippery slope of specialization and my favorite team is an NL team.

That said, I would argue the AL manager has MORE strategy to deal with. Why? Because most of the moves in the NL are "duh" moves. Pinch hit for my pitcher late in the game? My 7 year old can figure that out! Bunt a runner over with the pitcher up? Makes sense. In the AL, every hitter is a "hitter", so calling for the bunt isn't always "automatic". Furthermore, since your pitcher's spot never comes up, you are strictly using matchups/fatigue/stuff to determine when to pull him instead of pulling him because his spot is coming up in the order.

Just my .02...

Well put, SF, as that's an angle I hadn't though of before.

To your last statement, that's what makes the NL unique and requires a separate set of strategy though, right? Using a RP because they want to get 1+ IP without burning a PH...Pulling a SP late for a PH to get more runs on the board and it biting them in the butt...intentional walks to the 8th place hitter...naming a PH and having the opposite team change pitchers (then name a separate PH)...

Maybe it's more diversity of actions in the NL is what I'm thinking of versus actual strategy.

[Scott]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Well some AL teams are trying to add that diversity...Cleveland had 47 SH (t-9th in MLB) & Texas had 43 SH (14th)... I know theres more diversity than just sacrifice hits, but you know where I'm getting at...

[redsox4evur]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Let me start by saying I prefer the NL brand of ball. It stems from the fact that I don't like the slippery slope of specialization and my favorite team is an NL team.

That said, I would argue the AL manager has MORE strategy to deal with. Why? Because most of the moves in the NL are "duh" moves. Pinch hit for my pitcher late in the game? My 7 year old can figure that out! Bunt a runner over with the pitcher up? Makes sense. In the AL, every hitter is a "hitter", so calling for the bunt isn't always "automatic". Furthermore, since your pitcher's spot never comes up, you are strictly using matchups/fatigue/stuff to determine when to pull him instead of pulling him because his spot is coming up in the order.

Just my .02...

Yea Speedy this is what I was getting at. But I agree with you when you say there is more diversity of actions in the NL. Like you mentioned earlier I can't remember the last time I have seen a double switch in an AL v. AL game.

[Cubfan]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I hate the idea of adding a DH to the NL its what separates the NL from the AL. I think it will eventually happen if the players association gets its way to add one more bat to each roster.

[dickey1331]

MLB Off-Topic

I hope they add the DH to the NL. That's what I do in the Show.

[CMH]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Seems to me that no DH creates more strategy from the offensive side of the ball. The manager is constantly thinking of the right time to use a hitter on his bench to produce more runs in exchange for removing the pitcher on the mound.

Whereas the DH creates more defensive strategy. The manager is constantly thinking of his bullpen and when best to use an new arm to stop the opposing bats.

One can argue that the National League uses some form of the DH strategy because hitters populate all lineups but it's much more likely that the AL faces 9 complete hitters and has to use the strategy more often. This likely leads to those longer games in the AL as well as needing more situational pitchers in the pen because of the constant calls to the pen.

Another could argue that the American League uses some forms of the non DH strategy because a pinch hitter can negate the match up advantage created by using the pen more often. But it's much more likely the NL has to take out its bullpen arm late in the game for a pinch hitter and uses the strategy more often. This likely leads to their need to carry more versatile position players on the bench because of the constant switches.

I think a lot of it depends on which part of the game you think involves more strategy: offense or defense. We could argue ad nauseum over the subject because the end result could be that neither is more important than the other.

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I'll just add that (and this is not one of my arguments at all) pitchers actually get to face each other in the NL. Not that it's a much anticipated batter-pitcher matchup of any kind, but you hold yourself accountable if you, say, plunk a guy or whatever it is you do to get them upset. Be careful what you do on the mound, because you are now at the plate next time they want to "think about it." Granted, in the AL they probably just go after your best hitter (which could be the DH), but in the NL there are some other thoughts about "who is most important to go after."

I always think Bumgarner has some serious stones to bark at every player that doesn't run out a pop up. There are other pitchers that get in other teams' heads or on their nerves in the NL that make me think: well, they're due up next inning. I wonder if they should brace themselves for any reason.

Anyway, I just never feel the same kind of structure in an AL order versus an NL order. Any time I watch an AL game and don't really know the lineup beforehand, I get lost where they're at in some ways. Some people might see that as a positive, but I love the responsibility that #8 hitters have in front of the pitcher, or that coaches have on the defensive side of the ball determining who to go after with two outs (especially if a pinch-hitter may or may not be coming up, as it's also a strategy used to try and push the pitcher out).

Again, you'll see me really just complain that pitchers should be better hitters. It should be a bigger focus of theirs to improve upon it because it is something they have to do in the NL. Some people just say the fix is to bring in the DH, and I just don't agree with that.

[Money99]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Growing up a Tigers fan, I loved the DH and hated watching pitchers whiff on a nightly basis.
I've kind of grown to like the NL's rules the last few seasons. I enjoy the strategy involved and then there's the very odd, rare time a pitcher gets a hit or even HR.

There's pro's and con's to both:

AL
Pro: I'd rather watch a DH smoke one out than a pitcher fan the crowd.
Also, without the DH, certain players like Ortiz (or a future Miggy) would be out of work a lot earlier and I think the baseball world is a colder place to live with those guys sent into retirement 5+ years earlier.
Con: The DH is pretty one-dimensional and as a personal opinion, it's kind of lame seeing a guy sit on his butt all game and only contribute to one side of the game.

NL
Pros: Everyone on the field is a player for both sides of the ball.
Added strategy for managers and fans to enjoy.
Cons: 99% of the time, the pitcher's stink at the plate. One could make a case that pitchers are only contributing to one-side of the ball.
NL loses power hitters to AL because they can no longer contribute on the field.

Like Blzr pointed out, both leagues offer something the other doesn't.
After years of thinking they should both be the same, I like the difference and I hope it stays that way for as long as it can.
But eventually the MLBPA is going to force the DH into the NL.
DH's make a tonne of money and will help to drive up the average salary. That's why they'll be favoured over the additional utility player.

[CMH]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I'll just add that (and this is not one of my arguments at all) pitchers actually get to face each other in the NL. Not that it's a much anticipated batter-pitcher matchup of any kind, but you hold yourself accountable if you, say, plunk a guy or whatever it is you do to get them upset. Be careful what you do on the mound, because you are now at the plate next time they want to "think about it." Granted, in the AL they probably just go after your best hitter (which could be the DH), but in the NL there are some other thoughts about "who is most important to go after."

I always think Bumgarner has some serious stones to bark at every player that doesn't run out a pop up. There are other pitchers that get in other teams' heads or on their nerves in the NL that make me think: well, they're due up next inning. I wonder if they should brace themselves for any reason.

Anyway, I just never feel the same kind of structure in an AL order versus an NL order. Any time I watch an AL game and don't really know the lineup beforehand, I get lost where they're at in some ways. Some people might see that as a positive, but I love the responsibility that #8 hitters have in front of the pitcher, or that coaches have on the defensive side of the ball determining who to go after with two outs (especially if a pinch-hitter may or may not be coming up, as it's also a strategy used to try and push the pitcher out).

Again, you'll see me really just complain that pitchers should be better hitters. It should be a bigger focus of theirs to improve upon it because it is something they have to do in the NL. Some people just say the fix is to bring in the DH, and I just don't agree with that.

I agree that it would be nice for pitchers to learn how to hit better but I think the counter argument becomes: for every second pitcher A is learning how to hit, pitcher B is probably learning how to throw a better cutter or some opposing hitter is learning how to hit you better.

Hitters don't have to learn how to pitch. They get to practice their necessary skill sets. Pitchers seem to be held responsible for learning every aspect of the game and losing out on perfecting a craft that's pretty hard to begin with, even if things have scaled over to their side the past few years.

I get where you're coming from but it does seem like some fans want to blame pitchers for pitching and not hitting while ignoring the fact that hitters don't have to worry about pitching at all.

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

One of the major problems with adding a DH to both leagues is that it runs counter to the initiative of making games shorter.

I prefer taking the DH away from the AL and forcing teams to look really hard at whether certain "DH only" players can actually be taught to play defense better. As a compromise, give teams one additional spot on the active roster to store a thumping pinch hitter. This will never happen.

[Blzer]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

I agree that it would be nice for pitchers to learn how to hit better but I think the counter argument becomes: for every second pitcher A is learning how to hit, pitcher B is probably learning how to throw a better cutter or some opposing hitter is learning how to hit you better.

Hitters don't have to learn how to pitch. They get to practice their necessary skill sets. Pitchers seem to be held responsible for learning every aspect of the game and losing out on perfecting a craft that's pretty hard to begin with, even if things have scaled over to their side the past few years.

I get where you're coming from but it does seem like some fans want to blame pitchers for pitching and not hitting while ignoring the fact that hitters don't have to worry about pitching at all.

Your counter is valid, but what about my counter-counter of some guy learning to become a better fielder or what have you, while a DH is getting more hitting practice in and getting a lot of rest? He doesn't have to DH for the rest of his life or anything, but for one team he could be served as such.

In no way, shape or form do I consider first base to be a weak position, but it is a position that managers are willing to put away a bit of range and fleet-footed ability if it means getting more offensive prowess at that position (at least in the nineties, anyway). Or better yet, if you have a first baseman who is not a good hitter, you are not helping your team out because you figure you can get roughly the same defensive output for much greater offensive output with another player. So, when guys like Piazza, Pujols, Cabrera, Posey, etc. switched over to first base, I was thinking that was the NL's DH position. Granted, Pujols was a gold-glove first baseman, but I still felt it was a valid excuse to just get more hitting in.

Not sure where I'm going with this since this has more to do with DH stuff, but my point is just that there is more to being a position player than just hitting, and there is a lot of energy drained from playing certain positions on the daily (hell, even running from the dugout to the outfield there and back eighteen times for 162 is something to consider when it comes to the overall toll).

Adding the DH will just get more players to become more offensive, leaving the non-DH players to settle as less-than-superb compared to these guys. Just like the pitching angle.

I don't disagree with anything you said at all, I just think it goes both ways.

[Speedy]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

One of the major problems with adding a DH to both leagues is that it runs counter to the initiative of making games shorter.

Article from April/2014 (couldn't find data for 2015 season)

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/is-the-dh-rule-bane-of-baseball-purists-slowing-the-game-down/

Games between AL teams were, on average, two minutes and 15 seconds longer than games between NL teams.

I don't think that's really substantial.

I do have several ideas to make the game shorter...but that's a bit of a separate discussion.

[redsox4evur]

Re: MLB Off-Topic

Buster Olney on DH in the NL. Rest is behind the paywall known as Insider.

Spoiler

St. Louis Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak says there is more momentum for the use of the designated in the National League. From Derrick Goold's story:

An annual question Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak faces from the fans at Winter Warm-Up is whether the designated hitter is about to intrude on the National League. He usually dismisses the notion as a "non-starter," and his answer hadn't changed in his nine previous Warm-Ups as GM.

It did Saturday.

He said there's "more momentum" for the DH in the NL.

"I do feel like there were times I could look all of you in the face and say it's a non-starter, it's not being discussed at the owner level or GM," Mozeliak said Saturday during an expansive discussion with the media at the team's 20th annual fanfest. "But over the past year it has. I'm not suggesting you're going to see a change but I definitely think the momentum (has changed)."

Mozeliak's comments echo similar ones made this past spring by Major League Baseball Players Association chief Tony Clark, who said he has heard more discussion about the DH spreading to the NL than in years past. The chatter comes at an opportune time for DH advocates as baseball enters the final year of its current collective bargaining agreement between owners and players. Negotiations on a new deal will thread through this season, as the current CBA is set to expire in December.

I've heard similar words from other executives, and keep in mind that Mozeliak has been in the game a long time and has attended many meetings of his peers, and that his boss, Bill DeWitt Jr., is regarded as one of MLB's most powerful figures.

Maybe the DH is inevitable, in a time when there is so much effort made to maximize value, and to protect value.