Boston Red Sox - 2006

[boston_sports_rule]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

Do we go after Andruw Jones again. It's going to cost us Hansen, Crisp and most likely another top level prospect.

I think we are going to look into trading Manny again. I feel that Angels will be the best place for him and for us the prospects over there are MLB ready.

[Stu]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

Do we go after Andruw Jones again. It's going to cost us Hansen, Crisp and most likely another top level prospect.

I think we are going to look into trading Manny again. I feel that Angels will be the best place for him and for us the prospects over there are MLB ready.

Assuming Andruw Jones would waive his 10/5 rights, which is a big assumption considering he's played his entire career in Atlanta, I think you'd have to give Coco, Hansen and probably a prospect you got from the Angels in a Manny trade. That would be a huge mistake in my opinion. Andruw Jones is a decent player, but he doesn't come anywhere near replacing Manny's bat and he's only under contract through 2007, while Manny and Coco are both here through 2009 if we pick up Manny's option. Not to mention, you're giving up about 150 points of OPS between Manny and Jones.

[Thrasha]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

I agree with most of your points, but not this one. The Curt Schilling trade was impressive because they were incredibly proactive about getting it done. They went out, before the Yankees did anything, made the offer to Arizona, flew out to Schilling's home in Arizona, then worked tirelessly over the holiday to get him to accept a contract extension in order to waive his no-trade clause. This is impressive work, and to me, is by no means trivial as you kind of make it seem in your post. I suppose if you were arguing in terms of talent given up (Fossum, De la Rosa, Lyon, and Goss), then it might seem like a joke in hindsight, but how can you pin blame on the Red Sox for fleecing Arizona?

In addition, everybody seemed to be hot and heavy after Javier Vazquez and Bartolo Colon at the time. I don't think anybody (the press, fans) even thought of acquiring Schilling until the rumors of the trade started spreading. The baseball ops team has made some questionable moves since the World Series, but I don't think you can go back and paint the Schilling transaction with a revisionist brush like that.

Also Foulke, who proved he was worth his high salary in 2004 as a premiere ace reliever.

My main point with the Schilling and Foulke comment was that you knew what you were getting. They were two of the best players at their respective positions in baseball.

You're point about how the RS FO went about acquiring Schill is spot on, but all I meant was that it wasn't as if pulled a rabbit out of their collective hats acquisitions of each of those players.

[Thrasha]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

Assuming Andruw Jones would waive his 10/5 rights, which is a big assumption considering he's played his entire career in Atlanta, I think you'd have to give Coco, Hansen and probably a prospect you got from the Angels in a Manny trade. That would be a huge mistake in my opinion. Andruw Jones is a decent player, but he doesn't come anywhere near replacing Manny's bat and he's only under contract through 2007, while Manny and Coco are both here through 2009 if we pick up Manny's option. Not to mention, you're giving up about 150 points of OPS between Manny and Jones.

Yep.

I honestly wouldn't want to touch Andruw Jones with a 40 foot pole at this point.

Granted he's had a spike in his offensive production the past couple years, he just seems like someone that's going to have steep decline in defense after so many years of divings and crashing in to walls.

I remember hearing/reading something about his shoulders being in pretty bad shape because of all the years of hard play in CF.

[Stu]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

Yep.

I honestly wouldn't want to touch Andruw Jones with a 40 foot pole at this point.

Granted he's had a spike in his offensive production the past couple years, he just seems like someone that's going to have steep decline in defense after so many years of divings and crashing in to walls.

I remember hearing/reading something about his shoulders being in pretty bad shape because of all the years of hard play in CF.

I wouldn't even say he's had a spike in offensive production. The 52 HR year seems to be an outlier at this point, since he's gona right back to his typical career numbers. Andruw Jones is a guy who's gonna give you a .260/.350/.500 line and play very good CF defense... but an .850 OPS doesn't even crack the top 50 these days.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

Andruw Jones is a guy who's gonna give you a .260/.350/.500 line and play very good CF defense... but an .850 OPS doesn't even crack the top 50 these days.

As a CF taken into account it does. If it is to replace Manny Ramirez, then yes, you are correct, it's not acceptable. If we can keep Manny, and add Jones to hit 5th, that would be acceptable. Problem is, you'd have to give up Hansen, Coco, and a Bucholz/Bowden type.

You all know that Hansen would dominate in the NL in 2007 though, right?

[Dispatch]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

I dont' think that you can really compare this year to anything. There were just so many people that got injured or were inconsistant. Just look who has been are starting pitchers the last couple of days.

Players that were on the DL

Gonzalez
Pena
Crisp
Nixon
Varitek
Clement
Foulke
Wells
Wakefield
Lester

People that were injured for a little while but didn't go on the DL

Manny
Ortiz
Lowell
Loretta
Mirabelli
Papelbon
Honorable Mention to Youk and Loretta

People who were inconsistent

Beckett
Hansen
Delcarmen
Timlin

Disappointments

Tavarez
Seanez

[Stu]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

As a CF taken into account it does. If it is to replace Manny Ramirez, then yes, you are correct, it's not acceptable. If we can keep Manny, and add Jones to hit 5th, that would be acceptable. Problem is, you'd have to give up Hansen, Coco, and a Bucholz/Bowden type.

You all know that Hansen would dominate in the NL in 2007 though, right?

Yah, I was operating off the assumption that you'd need to trade Manny to get Jones.

The thing I'm afraid of is the Red Sox making a bad deal and giving up way too much, just to get rid of Crisp.

[boston_sports_rule]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

I love to keep Manny but I believe he will ask to be traded again this off season again. How about a three way trade.

Boston Trades
Manny

Baltimore Trades
Miguel Tejada

LAA Angels Trades
High Prospects

Boston will get Miguel Tejada. Baltimore will get the prospects and Angels will get Manny. For the the Sox reason for the trade Alex will be a FA this winter and with Miguel Tejada we maintain our defense and lose a little in offense. Miguel has not missed a game in a long time. Move Willy Mo to LF and resign Trot or make a run for Carlos Lee in the offseason.

[Dispatch]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

I love to keep Manny but I believe he will ask to be traded again this off season again. How about a three way trade.

Boston Trades
Manny

Baltimore Trades
Miguel Tejada

LAA Angels Trades
High Prospects

Boston will get Miguel Tejada. Baltimore will get the prospects and Angels will get Manny. For the the Sox reason for the trade Alex will be a FA this winter and with Miguel Tejada we maintain our defense and lose a little in offense. Miguel has not missed a game in a long time. Move Willy Mo to LF and resign Trot or make a run for Carlos Lee in the offseason.

I would rather take the prospects over Tejada, because I don't think he could handle all of the pressure that the fans would put on him. Remember when he flipped off the Blue Jays fans earlier this year?

I would rather trade Manny for Ervin Santana and a high level prospect or two. I think good pitching is harder to find then good offense.

[Thrasha]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

I'd have more worries about Tejada's age/skill level moving forward then I would have about his ability to handle the pressure of playing in Boston.

[boston_sports_rule]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

Well I would think Santana will be hard to get from the Angels because of the injury problem of Colon but I think Brandon Wood (ss) Nick Adenhart (rp) and Kendry Morales (1b) is where Theo could start off for Manny. Wood is their top prospect. Adenhart is their second best pitching prospect. There is no way Theo could get Weaver. Morales is a good young bat.

Baseball America ranks Angels Prospects (* players I think the Sox could get)
1. Brandon Wood, ss *
2. Howie Kendrick, 2b
3. Erick Aybar, ss
4. Jeff Mathis, c
5. Jered Weaver, rhp
6. Nick Adenhart, rhp *
7. Kendry Morales, 1b *
8. Alberto Callaspo, 2b *
9. Joe Saunders, lhp
10. Tommy Mendoza, rhp

[CWood2]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

And I'm not taking this position because of the year Coco has had, I felt this way when the deal was made.

So did I, and I was very open about it before and after. I realize that Ellsbury did a lot to establish himself this year after Coco got here, but he profiles as a better pure center fielder and a better leadoff hitter, which is what we overpaid Coco to be... and he's neither.

On the other hand, I also agree with cam that Hanley, Marte, and Pedroia could not play in the same Boston infield unless it's a few years from now. My mixed emotion is seeing virtually everyone we've unloaded have great seasons... from Freddy Sanchez and Mike Gonzalez to a resurgent Edgar Renteria (which is why a Coco Crisp trade needs to provide a lot of value until we have a replacement) to the new no-hit wonder, Anibal Sanchez.

I don't think Andruw will come at the right price, unfortunately. I would not hesitate to go after Miguel Cabrera with the same type of package, but I doubt he'd be available either since the Marlins are playing so well with him in the lineup. That leaves some innings eaters to add to the staff if available, a better version of Rudy Seanez (aka my sister), and Manny... who you simply can't trade without another righty like Cabrera. Tejada does not produce like Manny, and he can't flash it like Gonzo, so I'd rather talk to Anaheim if years of trade talk actually come to an ultimatum. That'll require more trades to compensate for his bat, which again, unless you get real creative or just find a perfect match, can get you hurt when you have to make a trade. I'd really like to see a 5 hole hitter and pitching to compliment some of our young talent, but a lot can happen that'll dictate whether that's possible.

[Misfit]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

And with last night's win we're only 0.5 game out of the wild card and 4.5 out of the division. So what's your point?

My point is (was), you came in here spouting like the White Sox were going to come in and roll over the Red Sox and they got beat by, well you already said it, Triple A pitching.

Sanchez really did his best to make Beckett look like crap last night which just brings it to a head how some of the deals since 04 have really gone poorly for the Sox. Honestly, I can't really blame it all on the FO as in some cases the players just didn't hold up their end of the bargain.

We can look at the guys who they let get away after '04, namely Pedro and Lowe. Lowe had a terrific postseason but an awful regular season. Not to take away from his October heroics any, but it happens every year where a mediocre pitcher makes an adjustment and does well in the playoffs. And over a short period of time its not that hard to do. Had they brough him back for 05 he would have put up Derek Lowe numbers, as in not good. Pedro has, at times, looked good with the Mets but he's been exactly what the Sox feared, hurt. His velocity is gone and he can't really be counted on in the playoffs. They did the right thing with both of those guys.

Clement was a bad signing, but the market forced that one. Everyone got a huge deal that year and none of that class has really panned out. Still, the Sox will likely dump Clement on someone else this offseason and end up eating 6 or 7 million of his deal.

Renteria was a boneheaded move and one of the few I really didn't care for. Yeah he failed to uphold his end of the contract by not performing well, but he never should have been signed. They had a good glove at short in Orlando Cabrera who is a very similar hitter to Renteria, only with a lower OBP. They knew he could handle playing in Boston and he came cheaper than Renteria. The Renteria felt like a panic move to calm the angry fans who watched them miss the boat on Pedro and Pavano.

That kind of takes us to the mess that is/was 2006. Damon is having a nice year in NY but like a lot of people at the time I felt like his style of play would catch up to him before his deal expired so I'm really not sad to see him in NY, even if Coco has had a poor season. Coco is cheap and under their control for the next few years and likely will post better numbers in 2007 (if he's still here). For those reasons alone, I don't want to see him get traded in the off-season in another panic type of move. I didn't think dumping Renteria was the best move either but I wasn't against it since his defense was so abysmal last year and hasn't improved leaps and bounds this year. The Beckett deal made a lot of sense at the time but of course looks pretty poor right now. Who knows how Beckett will be next year and the year after but I think almost anybody makes that trade. Hanley Ramirez has had a pretty nice season for Florida but nothing amazing. Yeah he'll get better but the media has exaggerrated his success. No one really wanted to see Sanchez get dealt but you have to give something up to get something in return, so be it.

The Arroyo-Pena deal has come full circle. It looked bad early on but the reasonable fans knew Arroyo would come back down to earth and he has. Yeah the Sox could have used Arroyo's arm this year but Pena had his value when healthy. If they didn't have Pena it would have been Stern out there in center filling in for Crisp which would not have gone over well. And Nixon has been pretty bad since July so its clear that the Sox need Pena in 07 and beyond.

Tavarez was a bad signing and not adding any depth to the bullpen was also a bad move. Seanez didn't work out but they didn't pay him a lot and it was only a one year deal so its not really a big deal. The Mirabelli trade was pretty dumb and I thought they overreacted to the Bard-Wakefield situation with that one. Meredith won't be this good forever, but it doesn't take the sting away.

Not making a deal at the deadline has gotten Theo crucified on WEEI, but I still have no problem with it. At best, they could have gotten Oswalt for Lester and Hansen (supposedly). After watching Beckett this year, Oswalt would not have been a lock to have great success in the AL and he has had his own injury troubles in the past. He, like Beckett, is basically a two-pitch pitcher and on the wrong side of 30. Meanwhile, Lester has at least demonstrated he has the makeup to pitch in Boston and has shown Andy Pettite like stuff. I don't expect him to ever be an ace, but a number 2-3 guy seems realistic. Of course, this isn't taking account Lester's health issues of late but no one could have possibly predicted that. As for Hansen, the jury is still out but he's shown an ability to at least learn on the job (by adding a two-seamer and change) and his stuff is excellent. It seems at worst he'll be Kyle Farnswoth and at best Brad Lidge. Its worth giving him another year to see what happens.

And that takes me into the winter of 2006. I've already stated I don't want to see Coco dumped in some panic move as it doesn't make sense. Unlike Renteria, he had a major setback in 2006 and comes cheap. And while I do expect them to explore the Manny Ramirez market I think this year has shown us more than ever that this offense needs both Ortiz and Ramirez to succeed. Outside of those two, there isn't a whole lot of power in this order (unless Pena improves a lot in 07) and if Ramirez is removed he must be replaced with a hitter of comparable quality. Andrew Jones is not that hitter, and I'm hesitant to say Lee is as well. Clement has proven he is pretty much useless as he can't be counted on to keep the team in games or eat innings, so why bother with him? He should be traded for fifty cents on the dollar. As for the rotation, it would be nice to get Papelbon into the mix but who closes? Your guess is as good as mine. I think Gabbard has shown that he at least gets a look come spring training because his stuff is decent for a lefty and he has demonstrated that he knows how to pitch. He could be a very useful end of the rotation guy, especially if Lester can't go in April. I also think a guy like Ted Lily could make sense if the money is right. If teams are willing to throw 7 or 8 million his way than forget about it, but if he comes relatively cheap he has his usefulness (and at least the Sox wouldn't have to worry about facing him). The bullpen needs an overhaul. I think Delcarmen will be and should be there but everyone else pretty much needs to go (except Papelbon, of course, though one could argue he needs to get out of there as well and into the rotation). Tavarez isn't completely useless so long as he's the innings eater and not really counted on to come into close games in the 7th and 8th inning. Breslow needs to show me more before I give him the lefty spot but Lopez sucks and doesn't deserve a roster spot unless its on an AL Central team (to face Thome).

Yeah, this is a long-winded post but this is the stuff I think about while I'm listening to WEEI in traffic everyday while they spout off some of the dumbest crap I've ever heard. The major problem the Red Sox ran into was that their 2004 team was not built to be a Dynasty. That was a team that saw its window closing quickly and seized the moment. The Red Sox get criticized for breaking up a championship team but that roster wouldn't have faired better than the 05 Red Sox. They're trying to be competetive and rebuild at the same times and its proving difficult. They have been extremely unlucky with some of their signings/trades but in the case of Beckett, Crisp, and a few others there is still time to change that perception. 2006 is a lost season, I think we can all admit that, but 2007 hasn't even begun. It will be an important season for this team because the few guys who did perform well in 06 will be expected to repeat that while other key guys need to improve. If Beckett and Crisp both repeat their 2006 season then this team is in some trouble because they'll have no ace and a hole in centerfield while other key guys are another year older.

[Misfit]

Re: Boston Red Sox - 2006

I'd have more worries about Tejada's age/skill level moving forward then I would have about his ability to handle the pressure of playing in Boston.

Tejada's defense has really declined this year. The bat is still there but at this point he's not one of the top 5 defensive shortstops in the league. A Ramirez for Tejada trade straight-up is no longer the no-brainer it appeared to be last winter. Yeah, Manny's defense could be classified as a liability, but a bad glove in leftfield can be hidden while one at short cannot. And Manny swings a better stick.