The 2009 New York Yankees

[Mr. Fascinating]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

Oh, how I missed the great fielding from Cody Ransom.

lol...*sigh*

[Yanks22]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

so few things here. why did we send down that great kid pena to keep the scrub ransom? why did we make this trade for hinske yet we havent started or even pinch hit the guy? and god oh god how many times must we send joba out there before we realize he belongs in the bullpen. ugh. He can't even go 5 innings, control is all over and velocity is down. They ruined the phenom that was coming out of the pen throwing 98-100 and dominating

[steelcurtain311]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

It's so ridiculous the way they keep throwing Joba out there. Yet they're talking about keeping Hughes in the bullpen, when he's their best pitching prospect. Girardi is killing this team, Torre had the right idea with Joba. The Yankees were at their best as a team in years, when they had Joba as their SU guy. It was automatic.

Like his 3-5 innings a game as a starter are really helping matters? All that's doing is putting him closer and closer to tiring himself out and getting hurt. You can get a lot of starters to go out there and give you 5 innings, 3 runs or less. Ian Kennedy could do that. Joba as a starter isn't winning the games, while Joba as the SU guy did win them games.

[Yanks22]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

It's so ridiculous the way they keep throwing Joba out there. Yet they're talking about keeping Hughes in the bullpen, when he's their best pitching prospect. Girardi is killing this team, Torre had the right idea with Joba. The Yankees were at their best as a team in years, when they had Joba as their SU guy. It was automatic.

Like his 3-5 innings a game as a starter are really helping matters? All that's doing is putting him closer and closer to tiring himself out and getting hurt. You can get a lot of starters to go out there and give you 5 innings, 3 runs or less. Ian Kennedy could do that. Joba as a starter isn't winning the games, while Joba as the SU guy did win them games.

and with joba out of the pen he can pitch more often. as a starter we're getting him only once every 5 days. as a reliever we can be getting him multiple times during a week, its just so stupid they've ruined this great kid

[Mr. Fascinating]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

Championship teams all have great bullpens. That's why we need Joba in the pen!

[CMH]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

They're not ruining Joba.

First of all, it's Cashman's call, not Girardi's.

Second, if Joba can stop acting like he's throwing well despite being all over the place, maybe he'll learn to realize that he needs to make adjustments. He's not helping himself when he gets into deep counts every time. He can't get past the fifth because he's all over the place. You really think that'll change in the 8th inning when he can't even get through the 1st?

When you have a pitcher with four good pitches, you make him a starter. It hasn't even been one full year of Joba as a starter. Guys are acting like his numbers are horrible. He just needs to stop throwing so many balls.

[Yanks22]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

the debate continues and the debate will always continue, people will always have different opinions on this

[steelcurtain311]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

They're not ruining Joba.

First of all, it's Cashman's call, not Girardi's.

Second, if Joba can stop acting like he's throwing well despite being all over the place, maybe he'll learn to realize that he needs to make adjustments. He's not helping himself when he gets into deep counts every time. He can't get past the fifth because he's all over the place. You really think that'll change in the 8th inning when he can't even get through the 1st?

When you have a pitcher with four good pitches, you make him a starter. It hasn't even been one full year of Joba as a starter. Guys are acting like his numbers are horrible. He just needs to stop throwing so many balls.

No, it's Girardi's fault. The first dispute he had with the Steinbrenners, was him not putting Joba in the rotation. Then Hank ripped him to the press, and what did he do? He folded. Joba was in the rotation a week later, and has been mediocre ever since.

Sometimes he looks tough, but who cares? It's over 5 innings. If you can't even give 6 innings a start, you shouldn't be a starting pitcher. Joba can't. His excellent control disappears when he has to go out there and throw 90 pitches instead of 20.

He's not a starting pitcher, they gave him his shot, it was good enough. Do they want to win now? Or do they want to lose games because they're using a SU guy as a project player instead of where he should be?

[Yanks22]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

No, it's Girardi's fault. The first dispute he had with the Steinbrenners, was him not putting Joba in the rotation. Then Hank ripped him to the press, and what did he do? He folded. Joba was in the rotation a week later, and has been mediocre ever since.

Sometimes he looks tough, but who cares? It's over 5 innings. If you can't even give 6 innings a start, you shouldn't be a starting pitcher. Joba can't. His excellent control disappears when he has to go out there and throw 90 pitches instead of 20.

He's not a starting pitcher, they gave him his shot, it was good enough. Do they want to win now? Or do they want to lose games because they're using a SU guy as a project player instead of where he should be?

thank you man, i know people are gonna say well joba before being put in the pen was a starter. okay but he wasnt a starter in the majors, he might of been a good or great starter down in the minors and what not but we saw his full potential as a reliever in the majors. we havent seen his full potential as a starter atleast not consistently. i

t'd be nice if he were moved to the pen after the all-star break or hell even before and get hughes going back in the rotation. but cash and girardi wont be doing that because of their "vision" of joba as a starter. it'd be nice to stop the experiment so that we can get some wins going

[NYJets]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

No, it's Girardi's fault. The first dispute he had with the Steinbrenners, was him not putting Joba in the rotation. Then Hank ripped him to the press, and what did he do? He folded. Joba was in the rotation a week later, and has been mediocre ever since.

Sometimes he looks tough, but who cares? It's over 5 innings. If you can't even give 6 innings a start, you shouldn't be a starting pitcher. Joba can't. His excellent control disappears when he has to go out there and throw 90 pitches instead of 20.

He's not a starting pitcher, they gave him his shot, it was good enough. Do they want to win now? Or do they want to lose games because they're using a SU guy as a project player instead of where he should be?

The first part isn't even close to true. Joba was originally made a reliever because he only had a few starts left until he was going to reach his innings limit. The Yankees had bullpen issues, so the Yankees figured why not try him out in the pen and see if he can help the team instead of having a couple more minor league starts and being shutdown. Torre had nothing to do with that decision.

The Yankees plan as an organization has always been to have him be a starter. He began the season in the pen last year to control his innings, with the plan always to be to have him convert to a starter in the middle of the year. This was not because of something Hank said in the middle of the season. I don't know what Girardi would prefer, but he has never even hinted that he would rather have Joba in the pen.


They didn't give him his shot, less than a full season of starts is not a shot, young starters struggle and they have to learn to pitch. Hughes was inconsistent as a starter, now he's completely dominating in the pen. Hell, even Wang has much better numbers in the pen this year then he has at any point as a starter. It's much easier to to give everything you have for one inning then for 100+ pitches. For just about everyone, not just Joba.

At some point, Joba will have to start showing more progress as a starting pitcher, or they'll say he doesn't have what it takes to be a starter, and put him back in the pen. But we aren't even close to that point yet.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

The first part isn't even close to true. Joba was originally made a reliever because he only had a few starts left until he was going to reach his innings limit. The Yankees had bullpen issues, so the Yankees figured why not try him out in the pen and see if he can help the team instead of having a couple more minor league starts and being shutdown. Torre had nothing to do with that decision.

The Yankees plan as an organization has always been to have him be a starter. He began the season in the pen last year to control his innings, with the plan always to be to have him convert to a starter in the middle of the year. This was not because of something Hank said in the middle of the season. I don't know what Girardi would prefer, but he has never even hinted that he would rather have Joba in the pen.


They didn't give him his shot, less than a full season of starts is not a shot, young starters struggle and they have to learn to pitch. Hughes was inconsistent as a starter, now he's completely dominating in the pen. Hell, even Wang has much better numbers in the pen this year then he has at any point as a starter. It's much easier to to give everything you have for one inning then for 100+ pitches. For just about everyone, not just Joba.

At some point, Joba will have to start showing more progress as a starting pitcher, or they'll say he doesn't have what it takes to be a starter, and put him back in the pen. But we aren't even close to that point yet.

Unless I'm thinking of something else, I remember at the time there was all kinds of pressure on Torre about getting him in the rotation and he didn't want to. And he said that for the future he would remain in the bullpen, but then he wasn't brought back as coach. Even so, Joe Girardi kept him in the bullpen until Hank ripped him to the press and demanded he be put in the rotation, and what do you know, a week later he's in the rotation.

The problem with Joba is that in the bullpen, his stuff is dominating. He can pitch at his own pace. In the rotation, no. I don't think he has the stamina to do it, and he's shown no signs saying different. He doesn't look strong at all with the more innings he pitches, his control goes all over the place, he just looks like one of those guys who isn't a starting pitcher.

By the time the playoffs roll around, they're going to want him in the bullpen, there is no doubt.

[CMH]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

It's always been Cashman's call. Hank has nothing to do with it. He's just a big mouth that knows nothing - that's been established.

Cashman has repeatedly said that Joba is a starter and will continue to be developed as one. Hank went on to basically say that he supports Cashman's decision (even after suggesting that Joba should go to the pen - again, though, Hank is an idiot and Cashman probably told him to shut up and let him GM the team).

Girardi has a lot of nothing to do with it and Joe Torre would have nothing to do with it. Girardi is only echoing the demands of his GM when he talks about Joba being a starter.

The real problem here is that lots of fans saw Joba at his best and it happened to be during the 8th inning. He came into the league with a 99 mph fastball and an amazing slider, no scouting report, and hitters struggled. Now, he still throws low-to-mid 90's, still has plus stuff, but hitters are adjusting and he's all over the place with his control.

I can understand it if he were walking guys left and right at a certain pitch mark, but he's doing it no matter the situation, pitch count, or inning. He simply has very little control and until he figures that out, he won't matter in the rotation or pen.

A strong starter is always better than a strong reliever.

[CMH]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

I'll add that it may end up being true that Joba should be in the bullpen and groomed as the future closer.

The point is that people are rushing too quickly on this. He hasn't even been a starter for a full year yet. He has 28 career starts and still hasn't thrown more than 100 innings in his major league career.

He is 4-2 with a 4.04 ERA in 2009. Hardly bad numbers. Could he work on that 9.4 H/9 and that 4.4 BB/9? Sure. I'm sure if he brought that BB down, he'd pick up his K rate again and that'll bring down the hits he's giving up.


Here's an interesting thing to look at.

In 2009:

His K/9 is actually 9th in the league amongst starters.

Yet, he's 5th in the league in walks.

So, he's still amongst the best strikeout pitchers in the game, but he's also walking a bunch of guys. Seems to me that he needs to stop walking guys.

[NYJets]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

The problem with Joba is that in the bullpen, his stuff is dominating. He can pitch at his own pace. In the rotation, no. I don't think he has the stamina to do it, and he's shown no signs saying different. He doesn't look strong at all with the more innings he pitches, his control goes all over the place, he just looks like one of those guys who isn't a starting pitcher.

He hasn't really shown signs that he doesn't have the stamina. He hasn't been a guy who falls apart at 80 pitches. He's had his struggles in the early innings, middle innings, and later innings. His problem of not going deep into games is not that he can't throw enough pitches to go deep, it's that he hasn't attacked the zone and hasn't had good control, and uses up 100+ pitches in 5 or 6 innings. The stamina is there though, the times he has been more efficient he was still throwing hard late in the game. This year he was throwing 97 in the 8th inning against Cleveland, the best velocity he's really had all year.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: The 2009 New York Yankees

The real problem here is that lots of fans saw Joba at his best and it happened to be during the 8th inning. He came into the league with a 99 mph fastball and an amazing slider, no scouting report, and hitters struggled. Now, he still throws low-to-mid 90's, still has plus stuff, but hitters are adjusting and he's all over the place with his control.

The reason his stuff is diminishing is because he doesn't have the stamina to be a starting pitcher. He's one of those flamethrowers with no durability, and that's why he's going to be ruined in the rotation. I'm not blasting them for trying him as a starter, but I've seen enough. I don't ever see him being a legit starter, while I do see him being an elite bullpen guy. Which the Yankees so very much need.

I can understand it if he were walking guys left and right at a certain pitch mark, but he's doing it no matter the situation, pitch count, or inning. He simply has very little control and until he figures that out, he won't matter in the rotation or pen.

A strong starter is always better than a strong reliever.

His control wasn't a problem until they made him a starter. And a lot of people were actually predicting that to happen, which is why you heard so much talk about keeping him in the pen from analysts and so on.

Obviously a strong starter is always better, but Joba is not that. 4-5 innings a game is anything but strong.

In 2009:

His K/9 is actually 9th in the league amongst starters.

Yet, he's 5th in the league in walks.

So, he's still amongst the best strikeout pitchers in the game, but he's also walking a bunch of guys. Seems to me that he needs to stop walking guys.

That might have something behind it, if he actually threw innings. His K/9 stats are inflated since he throws 4-5 innings a game. So being 9th, even with his inflated stat, isn't really that impressive. It means he's a K pitcher, sure, but it doesn't mean he's an elite one or something.