2021 Atlanta Braves

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  • LowerWolf
    Hall Of Fame
    • Jun 2006
    • 12271

    #61
    Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

    I’m not missing not having the regional sports networks like I thought I would.

    BTW, is Luke our best reliever?

    Comment

    • canes21
      Hall Of Fame
      • Sep 2008
      • 22931

      #62
      Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

      Originally posted by LowerWolf
      I’m not missing not having the regional sports networks like I thought I would.

      BTW, is Luke our best reliever?
      Luke is our best pitcher period.
      “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


      ― Plato

      Comment

      • LowerWolf
        Hall Of Fame
        • Jun 2006
        • 12271

        #63
        Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

        We definitely need to look at player development - especially with pitchers - and see what we're doing wrong.

        The rebuild was focused on pitching. At this point, only Soroka, Fried and Anderson have truly been successful. And even then, Soroka has basically been out the last year and Fried has regressed this year.

        Ynoa looks promising. Davidson shows signs. Wright and Wilson are too inconsistent. Wright is 25, by now he should be a fixture in the rotation. Newcomb and Touki have gone from top prospects to middle relief arms. Allard seems to be following the same path in Texas. Muller made his debut yesterday, threw a couple innings of middle relief and is shuttled back down. Obviously too early to make any sort of determination on him.

        Then the busts or relative busts: Folty, Wisler, Banuelos, Gohara, Sims, Blair, Jenkins, Hursh. I'm sure I'm forgetting some. Obviously, you're not going to hit on everyone. And to be fair, some of those guys careers got derailed by injuries. But I feel like, by now, we should have a solid rotation of home-grown talent (either via draft or prospect trades from the rebuild) and we don't.

        Then you see someone like Gausman go from wildly inconsistent with us to having a CY Young type season in San Francisco. Maybe this year is a fluke, but he was solid last year too for them.

        Feels like we have all these great pitching prospects who never quite develop as expected.

        Comment

        • canes21
          Hall Of Fame
          • Sep 2008
          • 22931

          #64
          Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

          Is it surprising the pitching hasn't been developing under Kranitz? The guy hasn't had the career arc he's had because he was having success every stop.
          “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


          ― Plato

          Comment

          • LowerWolf
            Hall Of Fame
            • Jun 2006
            • 12271

            #65
            Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

            I think it goes deeper than just Kranitz. He’s definitely part of the problem.

            Comment

            • KSUowls
              All Star
              • Jul 2009
              • 5894

              #66
              Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

              There is a topic that I have thought about commenting on here for years, and all things considered this seemed like a good time to bring it up.

              What are people's thoughts on John Schuerholz?

              I occasionally come across articles praising him and his legacy, and I've always been curious if I'm the only one who finds him and that legacy extremely overrated. I don't know much about his days in KC aside from the 85 season, but as for the Braves it was always my opinion that he would not be in the hall of fame were it not for Bobby. I don't mean Bobby the manager, I mean Bobby the GM he oversaw the talent acquisitions that eventually anchored the teams that dominated the 90s.

              Schuerholz's tenure was anchored by 4 (should be 5) future hall of famers, but 3 of the 5 were already in the organization when he got here. Of the 2 that he actually was responsible for, 1 was a very unique situation of the reigning Cy Young award winner being available in Free Agency and the team owner being willing to write a check. It was hardly a stroke of brilliance on his part. JS certainly does get credit for probably the greatest trade in franchise history to bring in McGriff, ultimately leading to a championship. The teams dominated the 90s were not his guys though.

              Justice and Glavine predated even Bobby, but so many of the other key contributors were all brought in by Bobby. Smoltz, Chipper, Klesko and Javy to name a few. Put another way, only a few guys who were key contributors in 1995 were the direct result of Schuerholz.

              And lest we forget some of the memorable Schuerholz trades which were detrimental to the team's current and long term success:
              There were supposedly financial considerations involved, but it's hard to look at trading away 2/3 of the starting outfield that had won 7 World Series games in 2 years as anything other than a bust. Trading away Jermaine Dye for the great Michael Tucker is one that I will always be mad about. The Adam Wainright, Jason Marquis and Ray King for a 1 year rental also hurts. Then there is the big one... JS gets credit for the best trade in franchise history, but I don't see him get enough flack for the worst trade in team history. I've never really seen it talked about/discussed how Schuerholz screwed over the team and even his successor in a desperate attempt to end his career with a playoff appearance even though that team was not 1 piece away like the trade would make anyone believe. Conjecture on my part, but I don't know how you can come up with any other conclusion other than he was a GM on his way out and wanted to swing for the fences.

              Obviously every GM is going to have trades that he loses, but for a Hall of Fame GM, I have trouble pointing to transactions, drafts, and signings that he did which were of great success over his 18 years as GM.

              Am I not giving him enough credit for keeping things together for all of those years, or are others in the same boat as me?



              A topic other than this atrocious 2021 team? You're welcome.

              Comment

              • Sportsforever
                NL MVP
                • Mar 2005
                • 20368

                #67
                Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

                A few things I think you are leaving out:

                1) The Braves were a LOSING organization when he showed up. He had been a part of a winning organization in Kansas City for 15 years when he arrived (people forget that from 1976-1990 or so the Royals were one of the premiere franchise in baseball). He showed up an instilled a winning attitude from day one; you can't ignore that.

                2) One thing that Schuerholz did better than anyone during his tenure was knowing when to let a guy walk/trade a guy. How many times did we not sign a player who would go on to be a dud or trade a player (David Nied, Charles Thomas, Tony Tarasco, etc) who turned into nothing.

                Schuerholz took responsibility for the 2007 season; in his book he acknowledged he wanted one last run so badly that he mortgaged the future when he shouldn't have.

                I know it's easy to pick at him, but seriously, would you rather have him or the guys we've had since him (Wren, Coppolella, AA)? I haven't been impressed with any of them...they've completely mishandled this rebuild by holding onto too many young pitchers/not letting them develop.
                "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

                Comment

                • KSUowls
                  All Star
                  • Jul 2009
                  • 5894

                  #68
                  Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

                  I probably should preface by saying I don't think that Schuerholz was a bum. He was obviously a good GM, but he seems to get a lot of credit for the situation that he walked into as well. That being a very young team with what turned out to be a couple of hall of famers, a couple of MVP candidates, and even more good players in the pipeline to offer sustained success.

                  #1 is a stretch in terms of him bringing a winning culture. I don't know that I would ever give a baseball GM a winning culture check mark just because the team started winning 6 months after he took the job. Baseball roster development is much more drawn out than what a GM can do in the NBA or NFL. Maybe if he was wheeling and dealing to create his own unique day 1 roster, but that wasn't the case here.

                  The losing culture was going to end with or without Schuerholz. I'm sure that he deserves some credit somewhere in there for the drastic turnaround in '91 (I believe he is the one who brought in Pendleton), but I'd put more emphasis on what was going on at the ground level. Bobby, who had been a successful manager before, taking over as the manager probably helped, but the Braves stopped being a losing organization when Smoltz, Glavine, Justice, Gant, etc all were entering their prime ages 24-26 in 1991.

                  #2 is true and part of why I wouldn't suggest that he was a bad GM, with the other part being that he was able to keep the foundation intact for most of his time here.

                  While I was never a fan of Wren, I do think that that he got a pretty raw deal after his predecessor traded away the farm. In hindsight, the players acquired under Wren eventually became the foundation of the really good offense of the prior few years.. He also directly led to the team needing to rebuild though so there is that.

                  Comment

                  • Sportsforever
                    NL MVP
                    • Mar 2005
                    • 20368

                    #69
                    Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

                    As far as the culture goes, I was giving him credit for a few things:

                    1) He came in and immediately saw the team lacked veteran leadership and someone who had "won" before. He went out and signed Pendleton, as you mentioned.

                    2) He was appalled when he arrived at the condition of the Fulton County Stadium playing surface. He immediately fired the entire grounds crew and hired Ed Mangan from Kansas City (a guy who had a reputation as the best).

                    3) As he walked through the front offices, he saw that everyone from the janitors, the people who sold season tickets, etc, all had the look of defeat/drudgery. On one of his first days he called everyone together and told them that the World Series would be played in Fulton County Stadium very soon (I don't think he realized how soon), that this was now a winning organization, and here were the expectations he had for anyone who was going to work there. If they didn't like it, he wanted them to leave now.

                    I know those kind of things are small and sure...maybe they barely move the needle, but I am a big believer in building a culture and he did that. He painted the picture and showed everyone where things were going...it was hop onboard or go elsewhere.

                    As for his negatives, I think as a whole the team did a poor job of developing pitchers under his watch (and that has continued after left). When you look at what this team did to Steve Avery (look at his IP at such a young age!), Kevin Millwood, Bruce Chen, Derek Lilliquist, Pete Smith, etc. Not all of those guys were blue chippers, but Avery and Millwood both were studs at the MLB level and the Braves ran them into the ground.

                    I know a lot of people point to the 2007 trade as the worst one (it was), but another trade that Schuerholz made that in my mind was pretty disastrous was the 1997 trade in spring training to get Lofton. At the time I was excited to get Lofton, but we gave up Justice/Grissom while Lofton never fit in/was injured and signed back wit the Indians after the season. I know it's hard to call that one a poor trade because those 1997-1999 Braves were really good, but it just seemed to mess with the chemistry of the team.
                    "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." - Rogers Hornsby

                    Comment

                    • canes21
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 22931

                      #70
                      Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

                      Anyone realize this team has 4 shutouts in the past 7 games and only allowed 1 run in another game during the stretch?

                      The team is also in second place which is laughable. If they win tonight they will be only 3 games back. Like I mentioned before, this team will be in the race longer than they should simply because nobody in this division is good enough to run away with it. The Mets are okay, but they're an okay team that can't stay healthy. The rest of the division is pretty mediocre as are we at this point.

                      Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
                      “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


                      ― Plato

                      Comment

                      • LowerWolf
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Jun 2006
                        • 12271

                        #71
                        Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

                        I know it was a bullpen game, but the fact we started Jesse Chavez today tells me all I need to know about this team.

                        Comment

                        • LowerWolf
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Jun 2006
                          • 12271

                          #72
                          Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

                          Soroka tore his Achilles again. Sounds like a freak thing this time. This year’s team is cursed.

                          Comment

                          • KSUowls
                            All Star
                            • Jul 2009
                            • 5894

                            #73
                            Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

                            I really hope we haven't seen the last of Soroka in a MLB uniform. It does seem to be a freak incident, but with his set back a few months ago and now this, it doesn't seem (to me) that it ever healed right. The one bit of hope that I can get out of the news is that it happened on June 26 instead of August 3rd like last year. Assuming things get healed correctly this time around, it makes an April debut more likely this time around.

                            Comment

                            • LowerWolf
                              Hall Of Fame
                              • Jun 2006
                              • 12271

                              #74
                              Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

                              Some supposed injury expert on The Athletic said she thinks the July 2022 return date is overly optimistic. She expects him to miss all of 2022.

                              Comment

                              • canes21
                                Hall Of Fame
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 22931

                                #75
                                Re: 2021 Atlanta Braves

                                Usually around 10-12 months isn't it? I guess rupturing the same achilles twice within 1 year may make it more complicated and potentially a longer recovery time.

                                I'm not sure if it is purely a freak accident or if mistakes were made in his rehab, but what a terrible situation. I doubt Cy Young candidate Mike Soroka ever returns if he even throws another MLB pitch a gain in his life.
                                “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”


                                ― Plato

                                Comment

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