Did We Get Bamboozled?

[Gosens6]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Doesn't matter what I think but I'd say most don't take everything said literally as some of you do. Should businesses be held accountable for statements? Of course. But to go so far as to call them liars...? I'm sorry but that's too extreme - to ME, which is part of the reason why I choose not to comment much on the board anymore. The level of contempt being shown by some - again relative to the overall quality of the game - makes no sense to me. And again for me I don't see where these statements, whether overstatements or not, are egregious enough to go so far as to call someone a liar. Perhaps I'm just cynical, but if I hear someone selling me something as being the best thing since sliced bread I don't take that literally as fact, and add some context to what's being said for my own good.

ESPECIALLY given the circumstances. This is a launch game that released less than two months after a major current gen upgrade of the game.

Some of you are very particular in what you want, what you want being said, and how you want it said to you. To my knowledge these guys aren't game developers, but they get blamed for presenting information a certain way. Perhaps I'm looking at it the wrong way, but these guys don't work for me - they work for 2K. It's their job as marketers to sell a product, or as a community liason to provide a connection between the community and the developers. I don't see where they're doing such a horrible job that they should be called liars. Not even close. Because certain features aren't what you want them to be and you feel they should've been saying "Well my bosses told me to sell you guys on the product but I prefer to get mad respect from the community and behave more as one of you...". As far as I can tell, they're doing their jobs. It's your job as a consumer to disseminate the information appropriately.

I don't think there was something that was completely broken and they purposely misguided people and said they functioned properly (like say, certain modes didn't work at all - and I mean TRULY broken, not OS's token tagging of something as "it's broken" because they don't like how it behaves).

The Park, a feature they touted as revolutionary, literally BROKEN, at least on PS4. None of the courts work, guys can't get next, then, once you finally get into a game, you're stuck , or you get kicked off. It's broken.

MyGM, the mode that was supposed to make us forget about all the other modes, BROKEN. The reason they're tweaking player morale in the 3rd patch? It makes it unplayable. Not to mention the injury bug where guys get injured and are out for the rest of their careers, the bug where you talk to your trainer and it literally freezes you out from doing anything else, it's BROKEN. Unplayable.

MyCareer, some guys can't even get into their Careers because of error codes, some guys buying VC which ruins their saves and unplayable, getting stuck in the jumpshot training mode, rendering their saves useless. It's broken.

I have NEVER in my life said a mode was broken in a sports game, but guess what, these are. And these modes were the main selling points of this game. They barely work, if at all. That's why we're so upset, and on top of everything they took out of the game, yeah we have a right to be mad.

Furthermore, these modes ARE what we wanted them to be, this is exactly what we've been clamoring for, especially in terms of MyGM. The way they hyped and described this mode, we thought it would be every sim heads DREAM.

Guess what, it's NOT what they advertised, it doesn't WORK how they advertised, and they didn't improve on any of the current gen problems, they're actually worse.

So don't say it's not what we expected, because all we want is what they TOLD US the mode would be. THAT's what we expect.

I mean cool, I know you're trying to put us down, saying our arguments aren't necessary, and that we're wrong for calling them out on it, saying they didn't lie and all this, but they DID lie. They promised certain things, they told us things would work a certain way, and they don't. Features they promised are missing, key details about certain modes were exaggerated completely or just missing.

Don't condescend us because you think we're beneath you, some of us don't enjoy calling out devs and being complete dicks to them, because that's not what i'm doing here. What i'm doing is letting everyone know that we were fooled and lied to by 2K prior to release, because that's exactly what happened.

[NvME]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

I had my gripes. I was willing to overlook the patronizing and constant insulting of intelligence spewed on this forum and beyond (ie, there is no rubber banding A.I. in place, there is no momentum, and the CPU doesn't cheese) It's a crock, but they're the best (and only - Live may as well not even exist, at this point - ) basketball game on the market. The scripting in MyPlayer is absolutely ludicrous, however. If I want to play scripted events, I'll turn on Uncharted.

I don't have the desire to address the VC oversaturation, or the nickel and diming model they seem adamant about literally forcing and shoving down your throat. For the record, this shouldn't be surprising. This has been a long time coming, but it's a testament to how out of touch they are from the core fanbase.

This would be a lot easier to swallow if, again, they didn't patronize their fanbase constantly with the "We're listening," song & dance, yet release a product that speaks to the contrary. You can create as many feedback and improvement threads you want, the only thing that will be heard and acknowledged, comes from your pocket & is green. As long as they have the market cornered, get used to it. This is why, despite the fact that, while I abhor the series, Live is needed - why competition is needed. A monopoly is great for a business, but it is never a good thing for the consumer.

[BobbyColtrane]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Gosen, I agree 100% but slow down a little homie.

[Optik]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

From what I've seen from the Community Manager of Konami's PES, the way LD2K and Ronnie2K market the game is pretty unprofessional. PES's community manager creates threads explicitly asking for specific feedback and is a lot more forthcoming with information and more honest, and less likely to lead you down a rabbit hole with false hope. However, I could be completely wrong about that seeing as I'm not one to buy Pro Evo games annually and haven't belonged to a PES forum in several years.

[Gosens6]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Gosen, I agree 100% but slow down a little homie.

Man, you're right. Just seems like dude is trying to talk to us like we're just some jerks who are doing nothing but trying to troll 2K and call them out as liars for no rhyme or reason and that's just not the case.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Furthermore, these modes ARE what we wanted them to be, this is exactly what we've been clamoring for, especially in terms of MyGM. The way they hyped and described this mode, we thought it would be every sim heads DREAM.

Guess what, it's NOT what they advertised, it doesn't WORK how they advertised, and they didn't improve on any of the current gen problems, they're actually worse.

So don't say it's not what we expected, because all we want is what they TOLD US the mode would be. THAT's what we expect.

I mean cool, I know you're trying to put us down, saying our arguments aren't necessary, and that we're wrong for calling them out on it, saying they didn't lie and all this, but they DID lie. They promised certain things, they told us things would work a certain way, and they don't. Features they promised are missing, key details about certain modes were exaggerated completely or just missing.

Don't condescend us because you think we're beneath you, some of us don't enjoy calling out devs and being complete dicks to them, because that's not what i'm doing here. What i'm doing is letting everyone know that we were fooled and lied to by 2K prior to release, because that's exactly what happened.

Huh? Where in the hell did I say anything that made it sound like I was being condescending? Or my comments were making it seem you all were BENEATH me lol? All I said was I think consumers need to exercise more responsibility instead of throwing out the blanket "they made me buy it/it's their fault!" excuse. OBVIOUSLY it's 2K's fault that their modes aren't working as they should be and people have a right to be upset that they aren't. But I disagreed with this labeling the issues as some attempt to lie to you or that they deserved to be called out liars. If you want to, fine - knock yourself out. I simply thought it was harsh and stated my reasons for thinking that way. In no way was I condescending.

Things like MyGM and The Park are ambitious and [seemingly] have a lot of potential. Imo they deserve to be nutured, instead of people taking these if it doesn't work the way I want it to on the first try get rid of it stances. That's why I contrasted some of these stances with the seeming limitless amount of understanding people here will show NBA Live regardless how many times they trip and fall. I see this being a launch game, and their first attempt at trying something new. Geez, they haven't even had the opportunity to make a first attempt to fix anything. The game's been out what, two weeks?

For the umpteenth time, I never said you didn't have a right to complain - I ONLY had a problem with the level of contempt being shown. I think I've said that repeatedly yet unfortunately I have to keep saying it over and over. If you guys feel you were purposely deceived - and have been over and over - then hopefully you'll exercise your right as a consumer to not purchase the product again.

And not purchase it only to say "Doh! They got me again"

[Gosens6]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Huh? Where in the hell did I say anything that made it sound like I was being condescending? Or my comments were making it seem you all were BENEATH me lol? All I said was I think consumers need to exercise more responsibility instead of throwing out the blanket "they made me buy it/it's their fault!" excuse. OBVIOUSLY it's 2K's fault that their modes aren't working as they should be and people have a right to be upset that they aren't. But I disagreed with this labeling the issues as some attempt to lie to you or that they deserved to be called out liars. If you want to, fine - knock yourself out. I simply thought it was harsh and stated my reasons for thinking that way. In no way was I condescending.

Things like MyGM and The Park are ambitious and [seemingly] have a lot of potential. Imo they deserve to be nutured, instead of people taking these if it doesn't work the way I want it to on the first try get rid of it stances. That's why I contrasted some of these stances with the seeming limitless amount of understanding people here will show NBA Live regardless how many times they trip and fall. I see this being a launch game, and their first attempt at trying something new. Geez, they haven't even had the opportunity to make a first attempt to fix anything. The game's been out what, two weeks?

For the umpteenth time, I never said you didn't have a right to complain - I ONLY had a problem with the level of contempt being shown. I think I've said that repeatedly yet unfortunately I have to keep saying it over and over. If you guys feel you were purposely deceived - and have been over and over - then hopefully you'll exercise your right as a consumer to not purchase the product again.

And not purchase it only to say "Doh! They got me again"

Fair enough. Honestly, we just have two differing views. I won't even get into The Park fiasco, because with how broken that mode is, it seems like they didn't even test it before releasing it to us.

Like you said, I've learned my lesson, and I think a few others have as well. We believed everything 2K said and ran with it, while going out and purchasing the game day one. Like you said, that is our fault and I'm more than inclined to agree with you.

The way they practice their marketing is just, "shady" I guess you could call it. They purposely overhype things, purposely make us believe certain things will be in the game, or certain things will work a certain way, and when those things are missing, or just don't work, that's when I call them out, that's when I start saying they lied to us.

In no way do I want this conversation between you and I to become hostile, because there's no reason it should. What I'm saying is this, I've been the biggest NBA 2K supporter since 2K on the Dreamcast, but these past two 3 iterations of the game have really thrown me in a loop.

You're right, I won't be purchasing Day One anymore, for all the reasons you stated. All I'm trying to convey with my message is, if you're going to tell us something is the greatest thing of all time, you better make sure it works as advertised, you better make sure you cleaned up all the issues from the previous generation, and you better make sure everything you promised us would be there and working properly. None of that is the case, that's the only reason I'm trying to call them out on this.

But you're correct, people should be giving them a chance to fix the issues, and I said it before, that's what we're doing. There's an entire thread somewhere on this page where myself and a few other guys are interacting with Leftos the entire time, giving him tips on how to fix the problems in MyGM. He took some of those pointers and we're actually getting the main problem fixed in a patch.

It's not necessarily about holding them in contempt, or making them look bad; But when we spend 65 bucks on a game, and they don't deliver on what they promised us, that's when the problems come in.

[Optik]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Huh? Where in the hell did I say anything that made it sound like I was being condescending? Or my comments were making it seem you all were BENEATH me lol? All I said was I think consumers need to exercise more responsibility instead of throwing out the blanket "they made me buy it/it's their fault!" excuse. OBVIOUSLY it's 2K's fault that their modes aren't working as they should be and people have a right to be upset that they aren't. But I disagreed with this labeling the issues as some attempt to lie to you or that they deserved to be called out liars. If you want to, fine - knock yourself out. I simply thought it was harsh and stated my reasons for thinking that way. In no way was I condescending.

Too damn right. Too much of the complaining is about stuff that we already knew was going to be in the game like VC being all over the GM mode and other features that would be missing. There was no reason to believe that 2K had fixed the AI for trades.

This is similar to the reaction to Live 14. People decided to spend $60 on a game that they knew wasn't getting good press and something they could test out by downloading a demo. Instead they purchase it and then whine about how they've been lied to. That's nonsense.

This also points out the unreliability of video game reviewers. 2K14 NG got high scores and wasn't criticised much for lacking a ton of modes and its ugly menu because of the great graphics. PES's gameplay is praised for being realistic but then it's criticised for lacking a ton of modes and having an ugly menu. I know they're different games with different levels of competition but there needs to be some consistency on what sports games are judged on.

[aholbert32]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Prior to release, 2K was promising a full featured, next gen experience. We all know now that they were exaggerating quite a bit.

They failed to mention a few things to us before we all bought the game.

1. No CAP, at all..

2. No saving of rosters to your HDD

3. Once you create a save while being connected to the 2K servers, you HAVE to be connected at all times to use these saves.

4. VC being EVERYWHERE, not just in MyCareer or MyTeam. (Along with prices still being ridiculously high, in some cases even higher than CG)

5. We were promised a groundbreaking experience with MyGM. So far all we got is crazy high VC prices to do anything, the same flaws from CG, and some new gamebreaking bugs riddled through the mode, it's basically unplayable.

6. MyCareer is scripted beyond belief, for the first time in this mode it doesn't even feel like we're controlling our own character, we're just playing out a story. When the game wants your team to lose, or you to have a bad game, you're basically forced to play poorly to further the story. Not what we wanted, not how it should be.

7. Defensive settings removed for POE. We're still not 100% on how these actually work.

These are just a few of the multitude of issues, missing things, game breaking bugs in certain modes, etc. So, my question to you all is, do you feel like 2K played us all when they made the promises they did? Graphics are great, gameplay is good, but I feel like they lied to us when they promised a fully featured next gen title.

Just a few more from a fellow poster:

Only 1 roster save at a time as far as I can tell. I tried to save a second roster and it saved over my first one.
-no playoffs mode
-no multiplayer association
-terrible menu
-editing rosters- player roles edits dont "stick"- revert back to original
-editing sliders- several edits dont "stick"-have to be reset every time you play a quick game
-have to download your roster every time to play a quick game
-no custom roster under NBA Today
-no official roster updates yet- missing players-this is the one thing that will eventually get corrected?
-no options to turn off bad cpu ai for trades/player roles/fa signings
-rotations get reset by cpu in season mode for cpu teams-terrible rotation logic-still broken

I agree with everything you mention here with one exception. I dont ever remember 2k promising a "full featured experience." If anything, we knew about the association/my gm related issues 2-3 weeks before the game was released.

[Gosens6]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Too damn right. Too much of the complaining is about stuff that we already knew was going to be in the game like VC being all over the GM mode and other features that would be missing. There was no reason to believe that 2K had fixed the AI for trades.

This is similar to the reaction to Live 14. People decided to spend $60 on a game that they knew wasn't getting good press and something they could test out by downloading a demo. Instead they purchase it and then whine about how they've been lied to. That's nonsense.

This also points out the unreliability of video game reviewers. 2K14 NG got high scores and wasn't criticised much for lacking a ton of modes and its ugly menu because of the great graphics. PES's gameplay is praised for being realistic but then it's criticised for lacking a ton of modes and having an ugly menu. I know they're different games with different levels of competition but there needs to be some consistency on what sports games are judged on.

Sure there was. When they wrote us that blog, and talked about the mode all they did was hype the improved AI, about how smarter every GM in the NBA would be. About how we wouldn't need 30 team control anymore because it was revolutionary and we wouldn't have to worry about those problems again.

So we had plenty of reasons to believe that problem would be fixed.

[Sinner]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

LD2k and Ronnie are the least of our worries, what they say to hype the game is what they're supposed to do...it's their job. Whether you choose to buy into the hype they deliver or not is on you.

The big problem is the content that is delivered, how the game looks, how the modes work, how is the game play? That's what i'm more concerned about. I like a few others will not get this day one next year if at all. I'm sure it won't happen but I need VC toned down if not taking out all together.

I would rather them have some sort of DLC package for people to buy as a way for them to make extra money. I would rather play out my career as a player and not have this script that everybody experiences, I would rather run my team my way and not have to buy upgrades for MyGm or MyPlayer with VC.

I would rather not play a game that is scripted in certain areas as a cover up for making it more challenging. The game right now plays pretty good, it looks gorgeous no one can deny that. But there are some aspects of it that I can't over look and come next year I won't over look if things aren't changed.

On these new consoles there is a lot more power than it was last gen, and I know they can't tap into it fully in just 2 years, not expecting them to.. but I want gameplay better, I want AI decisions in trading, playing, and running teams better.

We've all seen people say 2k is lazy, IMO I don't believe that, I can understand a first year on next gen with a game being built from the ground up lacking, but I want to like what is put into it.

I'll play 2k14 for a little while, maybe longer if rosters and patches fix a few things...but other than that not sure i'll play it as long as previous years and i'll wait a little longer next year IF I buy it.

[Gosens6]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

I agree with everything you mention here with one exception. I dont ever remember 2k promising a "full featured experience." If anything, we knew about the association/my gm related issues 2-3 weeks before the game was released.

They did. LD2K even said it himself. It's a brand new game, built from the ground up that would deliver a full fledged next gen experience.

Even after that community day they had, he came on here saying he was right all along and all the people that said it would be a watered down version of CG were being laughed at.

[aholbert32]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

They did. LD2K even said it himself. It's a brand new game, built from the ground up that would deliver a full fledged next gen experience.

Even after that community day they had, he came on here saying he was right all along and all the people that said it would be a watered down version of CG were being laughed at.

Full fledged does not mean full featured and the quote from community day is still true. The next gen version is not a watered down version of CG. Anybody who sees the additions to My Player and My GM would agree with that.

On community day, I wrote an article here telling people about the lack of 30 team control and the likelihood that there would be issues with the CPU AI in My GM. That was two weeks before release.

Also you guys need to consider the source when you hear bold pronouncements from any game company. Ronnie and LD2k are marketing guys. Their job is to hype the game. How many times does Ronnie have to make a post hyping something as "The best thing 2k has ever done" and then having the announcement be Jay-Z or something small before you guys understand that.

I rely on the devs for information about this game. If it doesnt come from Rob, Mike or SimBaller, I take it with a grain of salt.

[quehouston]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

I think 2k released an unfinished game, that they planned on finishing through patches. Which to me, after we see what the patches will do, is fine. But if these patches aren't a major fix to this mess we spent $60 on, then thats when 2k loses all of its credibility with me.

I'm gonna reserve judgement until after the patches. But I don't think anyone can deny the fact that we've been misled tremendously by Chris and Ronnie. I think 2k needs their PR to be a lot more professional. I mean, we love Chris for his GIFs, but I feel like he uses them to dodge legitimate questions and assumptions about the game, instead of biting the bullet. And Ronnie is just a hype machine (an obnoxious one at that). I personally don't think they should use the same marketing strategies here on OS as they do on Twitter. I'm on twitter pretty heavy, and most of the people on there are just worried about shoes, or the park. As opposed to a more hardcore crowd here on OS where we want our rosters, MyGM fixes, and customization.

Professionals should adjust to the crowd they are trying to market to. And I see LD having a hard time next year trying to win people over here on OS for 2k15. The only way I'll get hyped for 2k15 is if they say VC is completely abolished.

[Gosens6]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Full fledged does not mean full featured and the quote from community day is still true. The next gen version is not a watered down version of CG. Anybody who sees the additions to My Player and My GM would agree with that.

On community day, I wrote an article here telling people about the lack of 30 team control and the likelihood that there would be issues with the CPU AI in My GM. That was two weeks before release.

Also you guys need to consider the source when you hear bold pronouncements from any game company. Ronnie and LD2k are marketing guys. Their job is to hype the game. How many times does Ronnie have to make a post hyping something as "The best thing 2k has ever done" and then having the announcement be Jay-Z or something small before you guys understand that.

I rely on the devs for information about this game. If it doesnt come from Rob, Mike or SimBaller, I take it with a grain of salt.

Alright, I can agree with this for sure. But let's talk about those additions to MyGM for a second.

Do you really think this conversation engines adds much, if anything? Just hear me out for a second. Half of these "conversations" I'm having are repeated media, press conference questions that have very little bearing on what's happening in my season.

Then, when I do finally get to talk to any of my players, it's about them not making the all-star team, or them suggesting that I don't go sign someone else when another player get's injured. Literally the only interaction I have with players outside of contract negotiations.

Talking to the coaches is as annoying as can be. The assistant is always trying to get the head coach fired, or the head coach is always suggesting I buy a training facility, or suggesting me to change my strategies up in the total sim section, isn't that the coaches job to do anyway?

I haven't seen ANYTHING that differs from current gen association mode, aside from setting ticket prices, having a budget, and an owner that presents you with the exact same "goals" year after year.

We can't play any game on the schedule, we can only control one team, there's an entire multitude of things missing. To me, that's considered watered down. It's a decent first step, but they have a long way to go to prove what they were touting as a groundbreaking mode that would make us forget about everything else.

Then, no CAP? No saving rosters to your HDD? No online association? no playoff mode? SO much missing, it's definitely watered down. I guess you and I just have differing opinions on what is considered a fully featured game.

The rest of your points, I definitely agree with. It just took some of us a long time to learn a lesson about not falling for marketing hype.