So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Looks like you're answering different question. I didn't asked "where should I go to experience better ball game". I asked how to overcome the frustration of the phantom of the momentum in ranked online play. I almost gave up online because of this. I haven't played much online since the last patch and I'm yet to encounter those frustrating moments again (if thet weren't addressed or even didn't existed at all).

And I seriously don't understand how teaching others will help them to not experience "momentum runs" against me. It's like when they are playing "dumb" then they receive some artificial aid. But when they are playing sim basketball then there is no hidden help and I will blow them with ease by 20+ pts as I used to do so in previous NBA 2k games?

Honestly, take advantage of the POE often and make adjustments every timeout. I started making adjustments anytime xxx event happens xxx times. If you get too many fouls, I start playing conservation defense. If I pick off a couple of steals, I start playing physical defense. If I miss three jumpers in a row, I place emphasis on pick and roll offense. If I see that your team is giving up fouls, I start attacking the basket. If a specific player nails a couple of tough shots over me, then I change my defensive settings for that particular player.

I'm telling you. Constantly changing your strategy for each situation works. Plus, I call plays every 3-5 possessions on top of the other changes to prevent the opponent AI from adapting to me. Gone are the days where people could just set everything to one setting (deny, tight, trap, etc), play hero ball, not call plays, and still be successful.

Admittedly, I rarely called plays on past 2K games and exclusively relied on ball defense for my success. I was one of those people who left everything on auto, and just went with the flow of the game. Now, 2KSports wants us to be more cerebral about the game, and I can respect and appreciate that.

At this point, I'm looking forward to this fourth patch and getting Paul George back, so I can feel 100% competitive in online games.

EDIT: As for the third quarter runs... My theory is that the programming code recognizes that you did (insert strategy) a certain percentage to be successful in the first half, and I think your opponent's AI "blitzes" you strategy in the second half. As humans, we suddenly get frustrated with the dynamic change in the situation, and we subconsciously may lose focus.

Think of yourself as the quarterback for your team. Either you'll get frustrated and play into the blitz, or you can keep your composure and change your gameplay accordingly.

[Taer]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

In case Da_Czar or another dev is still following this thread, I wanted to provide specific feedback I experienced playing a MC game tonight which reinforces the assumption of "momentum code".

Tonight's game, my Spurs were going against the 76'ers. The first quarter I was leading by 11. By the half I was leading by 9. At the end of the third I was up by 15 but at the end of the game, they came back and won by 3. Comebacks happen and even the 76'ers will win at times. Fair enough.

After the game, I was loaded into a practice session where I was told "we lost because of your lackadaisical effort."

I had a triple double with 41points, 12 assists and 11 boards. Not only this but I had defensive stats including steals and blocks and 2 turnovers. I scored more points then minutes played and my efficiency was way above the league average.

If we look at this from a certain perspective, it looks very much like my game with the 76'ers was scripted to lose so that this practice scene could play out. I don't believe this, especially after what was stated by the 2k team but I can totally see how a person could draw the wrong conclusions here.

The reality most likely is that the MC scenes are so poorly written that no matter how I played that game or what the actual outcome was it was going to say I played lackadaisical.

[RodionMaZ]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Honestly, take advantage of the POE often and make adjustments every timeout. I started making adjustments anytime xxx event happens xxx times. If you get too many fouls, I start playing conservation defense. If I pick off a couple of steals, I start playing physical defense. If I miss three jumpers in a row, I place emphasis on pick and roll offense. If I see that your team is giving up fouls, I start attacking the basket. If a specific player nails a couple of tough shots over me, then I change my defensive settings for that particular player.

I'm telling you. Constantly changing your strategy for each situation works. Plus, I call plays every 3-5 possessions on top of the other changes to prevent the opponent AI from adapting to me. Gone are the days where people could just set everything to one setting (deny, tight, trap, etc), play hero ball, not call plays, and still be successful.

You know, the problem is that I ran, run and will forever run plays. It's how I beat people online. Long time ago I've found out that most people simply can't guard against middle-range jumper setups. So I set up wide open shots for my shooters. Or high post fadeaways. Or I beat them will dribble pull-ups.
Pre-patch 3 it worked just fine for the first two quarters. Starting with 3rd quarter my fully rested starters would brick everything, play lazy defense, etc.

I don't mind adjusting my game when I see that the opponent can guard my basic plays. Only then I start to add something new to my mixup of plays to keep the opponent guessing: what will I do next?
But when I have to semi-randomly adjust my plays for no reason (as it looks to me right now), then is stops feeling like basketball. It becomes a chore that I have to do something "videogam-ey" to overcome some weird condition that prevents me from taking easy jumpers against weak defense all game and not just 2 quarters.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I made those same jumpers through out the game. How do you think I got the lead?? By making shots and playing good defense. I understand your trying to help but your explanation doesn't make sense.

Your ignoring the fact this user also took jumpers, one being a fadeaway 3. His went in and mine didn't, explain that to me.

No plays ran and no set offsense. Both dunks were contested but no animations triggered, but on the other end you see defensive animations trigger for that user.

No, I didn't ignore that your opponent made that three. That was my point. He made it with Rudy Gay, if I recall correctly. Gay was on a hot streak. Guys make crazy shots on hot streaks. I couldn't tell but he may even have made a shot to close out the 3rd quarter at the start of the video.

As a player, you have to recognize when an opponent is on a hot streak and counter it. You didn't. Also, the whole argument that the other team was making crazy shots so I should be making my jumpers is wrong from start to finish.

You can hear me or not. Up to you. Other players know things to do the deal with what you saw there. Up to you what you want to do about that and whether you want to get better at the game.

I don't mind adjusting my game when I see that the opponent can guard my basic plays. Only then I start to add something new to my mixup of plays to keep the opponent guessing: what would I do next?

But when I have to semi-randomly adjust my plays for no reason (as it looks to me right now), then is stops feeling like basketball. It becomes a chore that I have to do something "videogam-ey" to overcome some weird condition that prevents me from taking easy jumpers against weak defense all game and not just 2 quarters.

It's not making random adjustments. It's recognizing quickly what the opponent is doing and making adjustments to your defensive game. You also have to make adjustment to your offense if you see that what you were trying to do isn't working, and you have to react to what the defense is trying to do to you. If you look at Sam Pham videos you can see him making adjustments after just one play, because he is that good at seeing what the game is doing on the court.

It's also maybe keeping a little timer in your head for how long it's been since you changed up your attack on offense. If you're winning and coasting, you may find a part of the game where you miss a couple of possessions. Now you have to watch out: your guys may be getting cold. Time to stay one step ahead of the defense and change things up. That's what coaches to, and it's true to basketball.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

No, I didn't ignore that your opponent made that three. That was my point. He made it with Rudy Gay, if I recall correctly. Gay was on a hot streak. Guys make crazy shots on hot streaks. I couldn't tell but he may even have made a shot to close out the 3rd quarter at the start of the video.

As a player, you have to recognize when an opponent is on a hot streak and counter it. You didn't. Also, the whole argument that the other team was making crazy shots so I should be making my jumpers is wrong from start to finish.

You can hear me or not. Up to you. Other players know things to do the deal with what you saw there. Up to you what you want to do about that and whether you want to get better at the game.



It's not making random adjustments. It's recognizing quickly what the opponent is doing and making adjustments to your defensive game. You also have to make adjustment to your offense if you see that what you were trying to do isn't working, and you have to react to what the defense is trying to do to you. If you look at Sam Pham videos you can see him making adjustments after just one play, because he is that good at seeing what the game is doing on the court.

It's also maybe keeping a little timer in your head for how long it's been since you changed up your attack on offense. If you're winning and coasting, you may find a part of the game where you miss a couple of possessions. Now you have to watch out: your guys may be getting cold. Time to stay one step ahead of the defense and change things up. That's what coaches to, and it's true to basketball.

Plus, you're not necessarily adjusting against your opponent. You're really adjusting against the AI. The human aspect in online ranked games might be dumb as rocks, but that AI isn't.

[Comduklakis]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Honestly, take advantage of the POE often and make adjustments every timeout. I started making adjustments anytime xxx event happens xxx times. If you get too many fouls, I start playing conservation defense. If I pick off a couple of steals, I start playing physical defense. If I miss three jumpers in a row, I place emphasis on pick and roll offense. If I see that your team is giving up fouls, I start attacking the basket. If a specific player nails a couple of tough shots over me, then I change my defensive settings for that particular player.

I'm telling you. Constantly changing your strategy for each situation works. Plus, I call plays every 3-5 possessions on top of the other changes to prevent the opponent AI from adapting to me. Gone are the days where people could just set everything to one setting (deny, tight, trap, etc), play hero ball, not call plays, and still be successful.

Admittedly, I rarely called plays on past 2K games and exclusively relied on ball defense for my success. I was one of those people who left everything on auto, and just went with the flow of the game. Now, 2KSports wants us to be more cerebral about the game, and I can respect and appreciate that.

At this point, I'm looking forward to this fourth patch and getting Paul George back, so I can feel 100% competitive in online games.

EDIT: As for the third quarter runs... My theory is that the programming code recognizes that you did (insert strategy) a certain percentage to be successful in the first half, and I think your opponent's AI "blitzes" you strategy in the second half. As humans, we suddenly get frustrated with the dynamic change in the situation, and we subconsciously may lose focus.

Think of yourself as the quarterback for your team. Either you'll get frustrated and play into the blitz, or you can keep your composure and change your gameplay accordingly.

See to me that's frustrating and illogical. IRL, if I have the Golden State Warriors, I don't stop shooting threes just because if I don't change my strategy it simply stops working. I do what brought me to the dance. That means exploiting mismatches, running pick and roll if that is my team's strength, posting up if that is my team's strength, running guys of screens for open threes if that is my team's strength. I don't suddenly say, sure I have Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson and they hit in the first half, but gosh darnitt, it is time to switch because if I don't the game will suddenly make my strategy stop working, even though that strategy works pretty well for 75-80 games a year (even in losses). If my opponent is GS, I don't suddenly say to pack the paint just because my strategy of crowding three point shooters worked in the first half.

That's not sim basketball. That is lunacy. Sure teams make some adjustments, but at their core, a team does what brought them to the dance, and I shouldn't have to stop tossing the ball into Monroe every single game in the 3rd quarter because "it's time to change strategy." I shouldn't have to change strategy just to keep my guys from suddenly becoming idiots and picking up the wrong man repeatedly or failing to get back. I should change strategies when what I'm doing isn't working. I shouldn't have to make pre-emptive changes because my players start playing like idiots and fail to rebound, pick up the right man, or get back on D.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

See to me that's frustrating and illogical. IRL, if I have the Golden State Warriors, I don't stop shooting threes just because if I don't change my strategy it simply stops working. I do what brought me to the dance. That means exploiting mismatches, running pick and roll if that is my team's strength, posting up if that is my team's strength, running guys of screens for open threes if that is my team's strength. I don't suddenly say, sure I have Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson and they hit in the first half, but gosh darnitt, it is time to switch because if I don't the game will suddenly make my strategy stop working, even though that strategy works pretty well for 75-80 games a year (even in losses). If my opponent is GS, I don't suddenly say to pack the paint just because my strategy of crowding three point shooters worked in the first half.

That's not sim basketball. That is lunacy. Sure teams make some adjustments, but at their core, a team does what brought them to the dance, and I shouldn't have to stop tossing the ball into Monroe every single game in the 3rd quarter because "it's time to change strategy." I shouldn't have to change strategy just to keep my guys from suddenly becoming idiots and picking up the wrong man repeatedly or failing to get back. I should change strategies when what I'm doing isn't working. I shouldn't have to make pre-emptive changes because my players start playing like idiots and fail to rebound, pick up the right man, or get back on D.

So what do you think is the best thing to do if your opponent is playing tight on your perimeter shooters and you have trouble getting open looks? Keep shooting contested 3's?

I don't think you think that.

Even when you make adjustments, you still have to make them with an eye on your personnel and their strengths. It's a straw man to suggest otherwise. But GS players are not all one dimensional. They can do more than one thing. And the beauty of some of the plays this year is that there are branches and options.

If the three isn't there, you can maybe find a cutter. Get to the rim a few times on those options, through a PnR or whatever, and the defense has to respect it. Maybe change your POE to PnR for a few possessions to help get some looks close to the basket.

Yes make adjustments, but still know and use your personnel. You can do both at the same time. And yes, that IS basketball.

[HealyMonster]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I hate when I feel a certain way about something with a game and people say Get Better at it, or step your game up. Its like I am seeing this with my own eyes...to the point where I can call it when its going to happen. Like the OP says in the 3rd quarter the runs start.

With this game. I have to say, as much as it hurts, it is about getting better at the game.

This is how my experience has been. I have been a casual guy with 2k games. Im not as hardcore of a basketball fan as I am of a football fan, so 2k doesn't own my soul for half a year, but I generally get the game, play half a franchise, play half a season of my career for a few months, then baseball comes out and I stop playing 2k.

This year, I got into it a lot more, and besides football this will be the first time I ever play a full season in a game, every game though regular season and playoffs. Its a pretty big deal for me, because every year in baseball ill be like Im going to play a game a day and 5 to 6 games per weekend, I should be in the playoffs by august, and it never works out. I never finish.

With that said, Im not a hero with the game. So I generally get destroyed when playing sim on like all star. I started my franchise on pro with the pacers, and went 5 and 10 through 15 games. A lot of or most of the games felt like they come on strong at all the right moments, like OH look my team won't make shots for the next 5 minutes while the other team drains them non stop. Losing the games like this was frustrating and the way each loss would go down in similar ways felt like something sinister was going on behind the scenes.

Here is the thing though, I ended up being 12 and 12 through 24 games, and strung together some wins. Then I go on like a 17 and one stretch so by the all start break I was like 38 and 13, winning one game by almost 50 points. During the win streak I was taking out teams like San Antonio by 30 with 6 to go in the 4th, they would go on a run, and Id still end up winning by like 18 points. I learned to play the game, and pro became less challenging. The runs and sinister computer come backs and runs magically stopped.

After the all star game I upped the difficulty, boom, games are close. 1st game after the all star game, I am up by 3 with under a minute against Toronto, they fouled me, I make 1 free throw, they drain a 3. Im sitting there like here we go, they are going to win (computer is cheating). We end up going into overtime, and I win on a last second 3, but I'm like holy crap that was tough. I end up going like 5 and 5 over the next 10 games, then I start rattling some wins together again.

The game is doing what it does, the only real variable is me. Im learning the shot timing, how to pass, when not to pass, how to stop a run by only taking high percentage shots, and capitalizing when players get hot.

If the game was actually cheating, there would be no way to win 20 in a row. I think people get frustrated with video games, when they put there best effort forward and lose, so they look at things happening and say, I timed that shot perfectly and it didn't go in, and I lost the game. The game manufactured this win for the computer, it is so EASY for gamers to go there. We all do. I am so guilty of this it isn't even funny.

But the truth is, if these things were happening, they would be happening all the time, even when I become good on a difficulty level. At this point, If I started a season on Pro difficulty, Id probably go 82 and 0 and break every single season record there is. If I went on the highest difficulty, Id be lucky to win 10 games in a season. That in itself means I am the one ultimately that effects the outcome of the game, not the computer.

[xdfy]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

basketball is a game of runs. i enjoy the fact that no lead is comfortable, as is so in real life.

[madmax52277]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I hate when I feel a certain way about something with a game and people say Get Better at it, or step your game up. Its like I am seeing this with my own eyes...to the point where I can call it when its going to happen. Like the OP says in the 3rd quarter the runs start.

With this game. I have to say, as much as it hurts, it is about getting better at the game.

This is how my experience has been. I have been a casual guy with 2k games. Im not as hardcore of a basketball fan as I am of a football fan, so 2k doesn't own my soul for half a year, but I generally get the game, play half a franchise, play half a season of my career for a few months, then baseball comes out and I stop playing 2k.

This year, I got into it a lot more, and besides football this will be the first time I ever play a full season in a game, every game though regular season and playoffs. Its a pretty big deal for me, because every year in baseball ill be like Im going to play a game a day and 5 to 6 games per weekend, I should be in the playoffs by august, and it never works out. I never finish.

With that said, Im not a hero with the game. So I generally get destroyed when playing sim on like all star. I started my franchise on pro with the pacers, and went 5 and 10 through 15 games. A lot of or most of the games felt like they come on strong at all the right moments, like OH look my team won't make shots for the next 5 minutes while the other team drains them non stop. Losing the games like this was frustrating and the way each loss would go down in similar ways felt like something sinister was going on behind the scenes.

Here is the thing though, I ended up being 12 and 12 through 24 games, and strung together some wins. Then I go on like a 17 and one stretch so by the all start break I was like 38 and 13, winning one game by almost 50 points. During the win streak I was taking out teams like San Antonio by 30 with 6 to go in the 4th, they would go on a run, and Id still end up winning by like 18 points. I learned to play the game, and pro became less challenging. The runs and sinister computer come backs and runs magically stopped.

After the all star game I upped the difficulty, boom, games are close. 1st game after the all star game, I am up by 3 with under a minute against Toronto, they fouled me, I make 1 free throw, they drain a 3. Im sitting there like here we go, they are going to win (computer is cheating). We end up going into overtime, and I win on a last second 3, but I'm like holy crap that was tough. I end up going like 5 and 5 over the next 10 games, then I start rattling some wins together again.

The game is doing what it does, the only real variable is me. Im learning the shot timing, how to pass, when not to pass, how to stop a run by only taking high percentage shots, and capitalizing when players get hot.

If the game was actually cheating, there would be no way to win 20 in a row. I think people get frustrated with video games, when they put there best effort forward and lose, so they look at things happening and say, I timed that shot perfectly and it didn't go in, and I lost the game. The game manufactured this win for the computer, it is so EASY for gamers to go there. We all do. I am so guilty of this it isn't even funny.

But the truth is, if these things were happening, they would be happening all the time, even when I become good on a difficulty level. At this point, If I started a season on Pro difficulty, Id probably go 82 and 0 and break every single season record there is. If I went on the highest difficulty, Id be lucky to win 10 games in a season. That in itself means I am the one ultimately that effects the outcome of the game, not the computer.

Thanks man!! You gave me motivation to bump back up to superstar sim. the games that made quit was when your playing good in crunch time, and see your guys falling for no reason, and my teammates are effortless. It feel like someone turn off the lights just to give the cpu advantage, that's the clearest explanation i could come up with.

[ForeverVersatile]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

No, I didn't ignore that your opponent made that three. That was my point. He made it with Rudy Gay, if I recall correctly. Gay was on a hot streak. Guys make crazy shots on hot streaks. I couldn't tell but he may even have made a shot to close out the 3rd quarter at the start of the video.

As a player, you have to recognize when an opponent is on a hot streak and counter it. You didn't. Also, the whole argument that the other team was making crazy shots so I should be making my jumpers is wrong from start to finish.

You can hear me or not. Up to you. Other players know things to do the deal with what you saw there. Up to you what you want to do about that and whether you want to get better at the game.

Yeah i could have did a lot but it wasn't necessary, he wasn't playing any better from the start of the game to the finish. The only difference is he made the BS with assistance.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Just had a great wall to wall victory online vs the Thunder....built a 16 point that never dropped below 8...Hassan Whiteside is a beast!

[nova91]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I've come to terms with the fact that weirdness is gonna happen in MC. I've played MyGM and MyLeague and I don't any problems with seemingly random momentum swings. Without the ability to fully control my teammates, all adjustments I put into place are at the mercy of the MC teammmate AI.

[bkrich83]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

ahh, the inevitable, I lost, it must be the CPU doing something weird to make me lose thread. We get this for every sports game out there.

[Da_Czar]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I like many really appreciate DaCzar, Beluba and others from 2k coming in here and communicating with the community. I understand you say that there is no rubber banding in the game...that's fine but there are things that happen that shouldn't and I think we can all agree that things like this need to be fixed.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9qkIeVJh9So" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I posted this awhile ago but it's still relevant and have had this happen on back to back possessions. It's happened many times in a game and is past frustrating.

This is also something that happens a lot with the rebounds, again something I posted before but again relevant

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0n0v2mhyW8s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I have no problem admitting i'm not as good in this game as many of you. So if I'm doing something wrong here in these videos or they don't pertain to the topic please tell me

(For brevity sake just using that first pass as an example not really digging into that issue)

Sinner what's good fam. Been a minute.

That pass is probably just an issue with passing, but when it happens during the AI run it may appear it is a coordinated event to screw you over but the timing of that happening is a coincidence.

Could be a bug or something wonky in code but it was not purposely put there to end or extend a run.

So when we say there is no rubber band AI were not saying there are not things that bring imbalance to the game. We are always trying to eradicate those instances. But that is not a coordinated attack against the user base.

It is just a part of making a game this size.

It is much more helpful to deal with the individual system that produced the error as you viewed it. For instance although that pass was close. He was clearly outside the vision of the player passing the ball.

Did you get penalized for a "bad" pass in that first video because of that ?

What was the passing rating of the player attempting that pass ? IF we tried the same pass at the same angle with a player with better pass vision and ratings does it complete regularly ?

Should pass distance matter more in determining a bad pass even if the player is outside of the passers vision ?


This is just some example questions that I'm thinking of when I see what happened just in that first passing clip.

All of that are just questions for the passing system. Then if the issue was not there, we would need to evaluate the catching system etc.

So we would need to recreate that scenario and attempt to cause the same issue live so we could analyze what happened, then decipher if a fix was necessary etc.

So once we move from the comeback code screwed me again to hey this should not be a bad pass let's figure out why, we eliminate one issue that was masked as comeback AI. And hopefully the fix for that does not introduce another issue in a different passing instance that also causes an imbalance.( Truthfully a lot of times it does which is why it was set that way in the first place)

But you won't know that unless you happen to run across a case and evaluate it and see it happened because if the thing you just changed.

Hope that made sense.