So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

[zrohman]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

basketball is a game of runs. i enjoy the fact that no lead is comfortable, as is so in real life.

I remember a few older 2k games even had sliders that affected the cheese your talking about. So this has definitely been built into 2k in the past.

I however do agree with some others.

I do not see 3rd quarter momentum shifts every game. If it happens it may only be 25% of the time. And again basketball is a game of runs. I don't know how you can expect runs to not happen. When you are playing with percentages you will have times of being hot or cold. I don't see it as a problem this year but I do remember when it used to be terrible

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I remember a few older 2k games even had sliders that affected the cheese your talking about. So this has definitely been built into 2k in the past.

I however do agree with some others.

I do not see 3rd quarter momentum shifts every game. If it happens it may only be 25% of the time. And again basketball is a game of runs. I don't know how you can expect runs to not happen. When you are playing with percentages you will have times of being hot or cold. I don't see it as a problem this year but I do remember when it used to be terrible

FYI, that post you just responded to is not a person, it's a bot. It's just a script someone wrote to pop into this thread randomly.

[Beluba]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Speaking of foul bugs, it seems that fouls from behind when a big is at the rim and forced to miss are almost never called. It also seems that a defender falling into a shooter after being pump faked also don't register as fouls after one of the patches. I also seem to be poor at drawing a shooting foul by going back up into the faked out defender but that could just be me. It would be great if these happened to be addressed along with the hard foul problem.

Yeah it's the same issue. Basically, within a small radius of the rim, foul calling is unreliable. Those shove in the back under basket shots are supposed to be fouls. The bug was introduced sometime around patch 3 attempting to fix a different problem. That's the danger of patching.


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[BluFu]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Yeah it's the same issue. Basically, within a small radius of the rim, foul calling is unreliable. Those shove in the back under basket shots are supposed to be fouls. The bug was introduced sometime around patch 3 attempting to fix a different problem. That's the danger of patching.


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Just to clarify, do Badges like Swagger, Spark Plug, and Heart & Soul contribute to these momentum shifts?

[zrohman]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

FYI, that post you just responded to is not a person, it's a bot. It's just a script someone wrote to pop into this thread randomly.

Yeah. I agreed with the script though lol. Didn't realize that there were a lot of bots on the site though. Good to know

[Beluba]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Just to clarify, do Badges like Swagger, Spark Plug, and Heart & Soul contribute to these momentum shifts?

They could, yes. Personality badges like the ones you mention have rhythm effects which are basically temporary boosts to certain attributes. Some affect just the player while some can have small buffs to teammates. This is the hot/cold system I've been talking about.

So for example with Swagger, if a Swagger guy makes a big play he gets a larger increase toward his hot streak level than a normal guy would. So that team might see a slight bump in performance for a bit, which could manifest itself in the form of a "momentum shift" or run.

But again there's no all-encompassing momentum system built into 2k on the team level and we certainly don't start firing off more bugs for the opposing team based on badges. The badges are just a way for us to make player performance more dynamic so that guys behave more like their real life counterparts based on their personalities and skill sets.


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[Sundown]

So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

They could, yes. Personality badges like the ones you mention have rhythm effects which are basically temporary boosts to certain attributes. Some affect just the player while some can have small buffs to teammates. This is the hot/cold system I've been talking about.

So for example with Swagger, if a Swagger guy makes a big play he gets a larger increase toward his hot streak level than a normal guy would. So that team might see a slight bump in performance for a bit, which could manifest itself in the form of a "momentum shift" or run.

But again there's no all-encompassing momentum system built into 2k on the team level and we certainly don't start firing off more bugs for the opposing team based on badges. The badges are just a way for us to make player performance more dynamic so that guys behave more like their real life counterparts based on their personalities and skill sets.


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Do teammates get rhythm bumps on offense and defense based on the success of others? Does missing a lot as a team or turning the ball over become "infectious"? It certainly feels that way, and sometimes it feels like AI teammates begin to create turnovers better during a defensive run and passive and sluggish on the end of a scoring run, especially in some earlier releases. Way too regularly did it feel like a few turnovers would trigger a cascade of bricks and sluggish defense. Teammates would literally respond slowly while the AI would become more spry and begin to test the boundaries of the physics and movement engine. I had always thought this was part of the team momentum system-- and you could clearly see the stat drops across all players on the court in the releases that displayed it.

Are there really no team-wide boost/debuff effects aside from a few badge effects?

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

They could, yes. Personality badges like the ones you mention have rhythm effects which are basically temporary boosts to certain attributes. Some affect just the player while some can have small buffs to teammates. This is the hot/cold system I've been talking about.

So for example with Swagger, if a Swagger guy makes a big play he gets a larger increase toward his hot streak level than a normal guy would. So that team might see a slight bump in performance for a bit, which could manifest itself in the form of a "momentum shift" or run.

But again there's no all-encompassing momentum system built into 2k on the team level and we certainly don't start firing off more bugs for the opposing team based on badges. The badges are just a way for us to make player performance more dynamic so that guys behave more like their real life counterparts based on their personalities and skill sets.


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Here's my wishlist for NBA 2K16. Can we get a "manual" that gives us in depth descriptions of the badges, plus what situations triggers them and what attributes are temporarily affected?

Honestly and until now, I thought that the personality badges were mainly cosmetic. The skills badges are are self explaining, but how much of a boost do players really get when they're triggered?

Lastly (and not to go off topic), is the Dev team looking into giving more balance between offensive and defensive oriented teams during these coin tosses? Right now, it still feels and sounds like teams that are heavy in offensive badges will outweigh defensive badges. Teams like the Pacers and Grizzlies should be able to get defensively hot in the same manner that teams get offensively hot.

Rarely do I see situations where great defense leads to a great offense or demoralizes a team instead of the individual like the Eraser badge does. One example of a defensive play that could be "team energizing" is like when Hibbert blocked Melo at the rim during the 2013 playoffs.

EDIT: Oh yeah. It's already been stated before, but I really do appreciate you explaining the hot/cold steak system more in depth to us. Before this thread, I was a firm believer that there was artificial comeback coding in the game

[The 24th Letter]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

According to what I understand from the devs, this is only true of HOF.

The difference between AS and SS is the CPU AI, and how well the CPU makes adjustments.

However, those adjustments can help CPU players get into a rhythm, which is what happens when players have repeated success, for the user or the CPU. And rhythm leads to hot streaks. And those hots streaks (for the player, not the team) give performance boosts.

So for SS, it's not that the setting automatically resets player ratings from their true ratings or attributes (as HOF does). But what happens on the court, if the user isn't competing as well against the CPU, will result in player based performance boosts when those players have success against the user.

In that way, the boost may be indirectly related to the difficulty level, but most directly related to how well the user is competing, making adjustments and limiting CPU success. In other words, any boost we see for the CPU on SS sim are on us as players, and our failures to play well.

There is no mechanic that nerfs user success other than user failure that leads to user players getting cold. But that primarily affects the player, not the team.

Player based hot and cold streaks can however, affect teammates based on the player's badges or roles. A PG who gets cold due to turnovers will make more bad passes due to getting cold. That in turn affects everyone. On the flip side, a PnR maestro who gets hot may start destroying a defense and making a rolling big look like a boss.

As for rebound warping, I think from what Beluba has been saying, that's just a bug, if by that you mean the ball or the player moving through another player to achieve what looks like a physics breaking, pre-determined dice roll result. That's like the bug of guys warping up off the floor to contest a shot.

The last thing to keep in mind is that the default SS sim setting may not be optimally tuned for sim. There are still places where, on those defaults, the CPU or the user may be too overpowered or underpowered for optimal sim. That's where slider adjustments come into effect, to better optimize the sim aspect from the defualt sim setting. Once I've done that in the past, I find those WTF bugs and animations that look imbalanced occur a lot less.

I was basing my comment off of this:

What Czar was referring to when he said that we'd be eliminating AI boosts as the AI gets smarter over time is that we'd no longer need to boost things like attributes and shot %'s to make the AI competitive. In fact, on All-Star and below, the AI actually has to be nerfed in comparison to the user to allow more people to keep up.

Led me to believe it wasn't just HOF...I could've misinterpreted...

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I was basing my comment off of this:





Led me to believe it wasn't just HOF...I could've misinterpreted...

I think what he's saying is, HOF is cheesed, AS is nerfed. The level that is straight up with full AI is SS. That's consistent with what I've been hearing Czar say since launch.

[tril]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

By now folks should know how to mitigate those 3rd quarter comebacks.
its all in the coaching adjustments. even if a team makes a run on me they will never have enough energy to sustain it.

yes a cpu/ ai controlled team will cut into my 15 point lead, get it down to3-5 points. but with proper adjustments and subs I can withstand and rebuild my lead. every once in a while a game will get a way from me.

coaching, control the tempo, use the same lineup and defensive assignments that worked in the first half. use your time outs and make teh proper adjustments. how is the team coming back on you. if you dont know listen to the commentary theyll tell you. too many turnovers- put in another ball handler, to many oints in the paint, adjust your d to protect the paint.

This game is lovely, even with my 25 wins and 40+ loses. and for those still having issue lower the levels you play on. learn the nuances of the game.

playing on HOF will not improve your skills, it will just increase your frustration level, especially if your arent fundamentally sound

[nova91]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Beluba, could you guys improve teammate(some more) AI in MC to help mitigate some of these runs? There are only so many adjustments you can make as a single player to counter some of these runs. At the very least could you have the option to take over defensive duties against a player that's killing you like LeBron did against Tony Parker in the finals of 2012-2013 or add the ability as defensive anchor to have your teammates press, double, sag off etc opposing players?

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[Shady Mike]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Why has no one brought up substitutions? Obviously there are times where you are going to lose momentum when you have a 69 ovr backup SF guarding LeBron James...I noticed there are plenty of times when the matchups are terrible...(Last night I was trying to guard Zach Randolplh with Glen Davis...it did not go well and he had like 6 straight point). Maybe this is where you guys's "Comeback A.I." is coming from?

[RodionMaZ]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Why has no one brought up substitutions? Obviously there are times where you are going to lose momentum when you have a 69 ovr backup SF guarding LeBron James...I noticed there are plenty of times when the matchups are terrible...(Last night I was trying to guard Zach Randolplh with Glen Davis...it did not go well and he had like 6 straight point). Maybe this is where you guys's "Comeback A.I." is coming from?

Topic originates from 3rd quarter combacks. Usually its the starters who are rested and are playing in 3rd quarter. That was one of the main reasons why such "momentum" moments feel so frustrating.

[nova91]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Why has no one brought up substitutions? Obviously there are times where you are going to lose momentum when you have a 69 ovr backup SF guarding LeBron James...I noticed there are plenty of times when the matchups are terrible...(Last night I was trying to guard Zach Randolplh with Glen Davis...it did not go well and he had like 6 straight point). Maybe this is where you guys's "Comeback A.I." is coming from?

Obviously because that's a legit/believable way to create/lose momentum and I don't think anyone would/should object to that.

A lot of guys problems come from when they have a healthy, well rested LeBron calibre player and seemingly out of nowhere a player like Travis Wear looks like the second coming of Jordan against them on defense and it's feels like there is nothing they can do to stop it or there or their healthy, well rested LeBron calibre player all of the sudden looks Lou Amundson on offense against a subpar defender because of bugs, glitches, and untimely animations.

Obviously, players have their good and bad nights and teams get hot/cold, but it's when/how those good/bad nights or hot/cold stretches seem to play out the irk people.

Like Beluba said, if you chart the times you get a bug or something in your favor and the times they go against you it will be fairly even and guys should be cognizant of that.

I have never seen/had a game in 2k where all the right adjustments or strategy moves were made using all of the different settings given to you where a team completely collapsed and gave up a 20+ point lead and lose outside of MC.

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