So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Exactly! no one makes this stuff up. When myself or the user i'm playing against can't buy a bucket for almost a whole quarter no matter how much ball movement was involved or the play being run...yadda, yadda, yadda. Even if the game wanted someone to call a time out, i think that should be placed on the user and not the game to determine what you should or shouldn't be doing.

I would like developer to tell me that there isn't a code to allow for more exciting finishes to games. Iv'e seen way too many come backs, game winners and buzzer beaters to not think so.

I'll leave this video here for anyone to make their own observations. The video starts right at the end of the 3rd quarter. Mind you that the best player on the Kings team, Demarcus Cousins does not even get a touch. Rudy Gay just dunks on everyone and makes a fade away 3 even though there was ample time for him to square up for the shot.

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_7Dg3EvITpk" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="480" width="640"></iframe>

While i have the devs attention please look at this. These type of NBA Jam dunks shouldn't happen, especially well contested ones. What is being done about this short of thing?

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nme7ZfQ0NsI" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

I watched that first video. And to be honest, I see a comeback, but I don't see comeback logic. What I see is:

• You spread the floor and settled for jump shots. That led to long rebounds and fast breaks for the CPU. That's a no no from a strategy perspective protecting the lead late. It would have been better to use that spread to set up some high PnR iso situations where you could get to the rim or at least get fouled in the paint.
• You kept a time out in your pocket too long while Rudy Gay got hot. He was killing you and obviously on fire, and you didn't do anything about it. So what if Cousins wasn't getting touches? Gay was en fuego. You should have adjusted your defensive settings to tighten up on him with and without the ball, make someone else beat you. But instead you let the game roll while your opponent was hot.
• So, why not call your buzzer beating in bound shot cheese? If the team controls had been reversed, and that was the CPU, a lot of guys would call that shot clock cheese and CPU cheating.

Yes, you missed some shots late. That happens. But you didn't take smart shots and by doing so you didn't let the game slow down enough where your defense could set up before having to work in transition. If you had gotten to the rim and forced short rebounds, taken a higher percentage shot or gotten to the foul line, you could have given your defense more of a chance.

The "momentum" here was whatever momentum you accidentally gave the CPU with how you played your own strategy. Gay as an individual player got hot, and that can happen, but you were late and slow to respond, and you didn't adjust your defensive settings on Gay to take account for what was happening on the floor.

I'm not trying to trash talk you at all. I'm just saying, this is how to deal with that kind of situation. It's not that there's a hidden comeback or momentum system (as I have learned in this thread). And I know a lot of guys don't know how to use defensive settings and so on. But the game does give us the tools to deal with these kinds of situations. They take some time to learn, but if people want to avoid, or at least minimize, situations like that first video, they have to learn to use those tools and adjust their gameplay.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I get what you are saying and the developers. But, these same developers will tell you in other threads that coding isn't an exact science. Change one thing you can impact another. For whatever reason, intent or not (and I 100% believe the developers aren't lying, so no intent) these 3rd quarter momentum shifts that lead to runs seem quite a bit more than a coin flip.

I'm well aware of the laws of probability. Flip a coin 100 times and it may land heads 99 out of 100. Do it again and it may be 51/49. However if you flip the same coin over and over millions or billions of times, it should average out to 50/50. I get that. It's a major plot point in a very famous play by Tom Stoppard. But to continue on the need to flip the coin more than 100 times to achieve a true "law of averages," I've played enough games to see that the momentum shifts are far more than a flip of a coin. And that momentum shift too often involves my players being struck dumb rather than the CPU simply locking me down on D and making good shots (which happens every night in the NBA) or the CPU making strategy changes that I fail to respond too.

I'm not a coder so I can't say exactly why the situation occurs, I can merely say it does. For whatever reason 2K struggles with making runs and momentum shifts realistic, yet denies that their is any code for runs, evening out of stats, or momentum shifts, other than the law of averages and each play being independent of the previous one (save the "hot" factor in shooters which shouldn't have an impact on my players ability to rebound on the defensive glass, pick up the right man on D, get back in transition, etc.).

Hope that makes sense.

It makes sense. Believe me, i know what you're seeing and talking about. Makes me nuts.

But here's what, if the devs are right and telling the truth, is happening when you and I are having this reaction:

• We're not seeing or noticing when we benefit from CPU AI failures on defense and we get open looks as a result. We think to ourselves that we set up a good play, worked for a good look, and converted. Meanwhile that bad rotation we took advantage of or that failure by a CPU player to react could just be the flip side of what we notice on our defense when it happens with our own players.
• Hot players for the CPU can, I'm thinking, maybe affect their offensive rebounders, for example, if they have floor general badge. So while there is not team wide momentum, one hot player can affect the play and even the awareness of some other players around him depending on his badges.
• I've learned from Sam Pham to make immediate adjustments to my defensive settings when I see a bad rotation that doesn't work against what the CPU is doing on offense. So while bad rotations happen, they can also be fixed or minimized by how we set up defensive settings. If you're not making adjustments to defensive settings throughout the game based on what you're seeing, you're probably under-utilizing that set of tools. Sometimes the bad rotations are caused by the way I have the settings, and I have to fix my own previous adjustments to make it better.

Those are my thoughts at this point. I swear like a mofo at this game plenty, especially when I see things like what you're talking about, like when I have four rebounders near the hoop and they all lose out to the one CPU player who is there. Same with loose balls.



I feel like patch 3 addressed some of that, as those were bugs or at least problems with the tuning. And there are bugs. But bugs are not the same as runs or momentum.



When we see bugs happen against us when we're getting beat for a few possessions in a row, speaking for myself, they feel like a punch in the gut and I don't forget them. But I do forget the bugs that happen in may favor. Or, if I notice them, I just say to myself, "Well, that maybe makes up at least a little for all that other CPU cheese I have to put up with!"

[JerzeyReign]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I watched that first video. And to be honest, I see a comeback, but I don't see comeback logic. What I see is:

• You spread the floor and settled for jump shots. That led to long rebounds and fast breaks for the CPU. That's a no no from a strategy perspective protecting the lead late. It would have been better to use that spread to set up some high PnR iso situations where you could get to the rim or at least get fouled in the paint.
• You kept a time out in your pocket too long while Rudy Gay got hot. He was killing you and obviously on fire, and you didn't do anything about it. So what if Cousins wasn't getting touches? Gay was en fuego. You should have adjusted your defensive settings to tighten up on him with and without the ball, make someone else beat you. But instead you let the game roll while your opponent was hot.
• So, why not call your buzzer beating in bound shot cheese? If the team controls had been reversed, and that was the CPU, a lot of guys would call that shot clock cheese and CPU cheating.

Yes, you missed some shots late. That happens. But you didn't take smart shots and by doing so you didn't let the game slow down enough where your defense could set up before having to work in transition. If you had gotten to the rim and forced short rebounds, taken a higher percentage shot or gotten to the foul line, you could have given your defense more of a chance.

The "momentum" here was whatever momentum you accidentally gave the CPU with how you played your own strategy. Gay as an individual player got hot, and that can happen, but you were late and slow to respond, and you didn't adjust your defensive settings on Gay to take account for what was happening on the floor.

I'm not trying to trash talk you at all. I'm just saying, this is how to deal with that kind of situation. It's not that there's a hidden comeback or momentum system (as I have learned in this thread). And I know a lot of guys don't know how to use defensive settings and so on. But the game does give us the tools to deal with these kinds of situations. They take some time to learn, but if people want to avoid, or at least minimize, situations like that first video, they have to learn to use those tools and adjust their gameplay.

Thats not the AI doing all that, thats a human player. Thats really an example of how online matches end 95% of the time.

[jenesaispas]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

there is simply no point in even discussing it anymore. an incredibly large percentage of the 2K community are imagining things.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Thats not the AI doing all that, thats a human player. Thats really an example of how online matches end 95% of the time.

Ah, Ok. I missed that.

[jyoung]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

there is simply no point in even discussing it anymore. an incredibly large percentage of the 2K community are imagining things.

People will always find some way to blame the game for their losses instead of looking at the man in the mirror.

When people lose in Call of Duty or Battlefield, they blame the hit detection, or cry that a particular loadout is OP.

When people lose in EA NHL, they blame "ice tilt," even after the developers have told people directly, time after time, that nothing like that exists in the code.

Just pick a competitive game, and you can probably find one or two popular excuses that people will point to instead of addressing their own mistakes.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

The things i'm seeing right now.

The cpu are making unbelievable shots, and this comeback code seems to be my teammates. if they do their jobs, boxout contest shots, proper help defense outcomes would be different. so my questions...are these things happening base on my team strengths are weaknesses. and do i have to use training on teams that are weak in certain area.

Things are slowly starting to make sense to me, but bogus stuff i see leave me piss off a little bit.

Good question.

I finally got off my butt and starting working strategy changes during timeouts and on the fly coaching more consistently and often. What I'm learning is that there's still the element of stick skills, BUT there's also a NEW element of coaching skills. I'm not sure if this is specifically new this year, but I can see where the AI is in a constant state of dynamically adapting. The freelance offense is a blessing and curse at the same time. It makes it simple for gamers to pick and play and not worry about calling plays. However, if the opponent AI adapts and then you throw in the run of coin tosses (see previous posts), this game could get controller breaking frustrating real quick.

I'm learning that you have take away the AI's chance to learn what you're doing to be successful. Once you remove the "crutch" of the adaptive AI, then it falls on the human opponent to adapt on the behalf of the AI. I have played 15 games since reading Belbua's statement about law of averages and streaks, and I'm getting less and less frustrated with online ranked games. Da Czar wasn't kidding he says don't play video games, play basketball.

[ForeverVersatile]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I watched that first video. And to be honest, I see a comeback, but I don't see comeback logic. What I see is:

• You spread the floor and settled for jump shots. That led to long rebounds and fast breaks for the CPU. That's a no no from a strategy perspective protecting the lead late. It would have been better to use that spread to set up some high PnR iso situations where you could get to the rim or at least get fouled in the paint.
• You kept a time out in your pocket too long while Rudy Gay got hot. He was killing you and obviously on fire, and you didn't do anything about it. So what if Cousins wasn't getting touches? Gay was en fuego. You should have adjusted your defensive settings to tighten up on him with and without the ball, make someone else beat you. But instead you let the game roll while your opponent was hot.
• So, why not call your buzzer beating in bound shot cheese? If the team controls had been reversed, and that was the CPU, a lot of guys would call that shot clock cheese and CPU cheating.

Yes, you missed some shots late. That happens. But you didn't take smart shots and by doing so you didn't let the game slow down enough where your defense could set up before having to work in transition. If you had gotten to the rim and forced short rebounds, taken a higher percentage shot or gotten to the foul line, you could have given your defense more of a chance.

The "momentum" here was whatever momentum you accidentally gave the CPU with how you played your own strategy. Gay as an individual player got hot, and that can happen, but you were late and slow to respond, and you didn't adjust your defensive settings on Gay to take account for what was happening on the floor.

I'm not trying to trash talk you at all. I'm just saying, this is how to deal with that kind of situation. It's not that there's a hidden comeback or momentum system (as I have learned in this thread). And I know a lot of guys don't know how to use defensive settings and so on. But the game does give us the tools to deal with these kinds of situations. They take some time to learn, but if people want to avoid, or at least minimize, situations like that first video, they have to learn to use those tools and adjust their gameplay.

How is swinging the ball to the open man a bad shot. You lost me after that.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

How is swinging the ball to the open man a bad shot. You lost me after that.

Those were not always prime shooters, and situationally, not the best options. By "situation" I mean they are jumpers with longer rebounds, so the risk of a miss leads to transition problems, which is EXACTLY what happened.

With Rudy Gay getting hot, helping him by giving the transition offense a chance to catch you flat footed is bad. Plus, we did not see POE's, but is sure didn't look to me like the Celtics were playing to limit transition and crash defensive boards.

Your question implies that all open shots are good shots. But when I play D, I sag off bad perimeter shooters for a reason. Just because a shot is open doesn't mean it's good basketball.

Best option: get the ball to the hoop from the spread, either with a pick or a couple of quick passes and cuts once the double team comes. Get fouled or get a layup.

[ForeverVersatile]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Those were not always prime shooters, and situationally, not the best options. By "situation" I mean they are jumpers with longer rebounds, so the risk of a miss leads to transition problems, which is EXACTLY what happened.

With Rudy Gay getting hot, helping him by giving the transition offense a chance to catch you flat footed is bad. Plus, we did not see POE's, but is sure didn't look to me like the Celtics were playing to limit transition and crash defensive boards.

Your question implies that all open shots are good shots. But when I play D, I sag off bad perimeter shooters for a reason. Just because a shot is open doesn't mean it's good. Basketball.

Bets option: get the ball to the hoop from the spread, either with a pick or a couple of quick passes and cuts once the double team comes. Get fouled or get a layup.

I made those same jumpers through out the game. How do you think I got the lead?? By making shots and playing good defense. I understand your trying to help but your explanation doesn't make sense.

Your ignoring the fact this user also took jumpers, one being a fadeaway 3. His went in and mine didn't, explain that to me.

No plays ran and no set offsense. Both dunks were contested but no animations triggered, but on the other end you see defensive animations trigger for that user.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I made those same jumpers through out the game. How do you think I got the lead?? By making shots and playing good defense. I understand your trying to help but your explanation doesn't make sense.

I get that you were making those shots during the game, and they maybe could fall when you took them. But the risk of them not falling in that situation was what you saw: fast breaks. So that late in the game, that risk becomes unacceptable with a lead.

So you take different shots and adapt your offense. Plus, adapting your offense from what you did earlier in the game is exactly what becomes more successful against an opponent late in the game. What worked before won't keep working. Expand your attack tool kit.

Another benefit of what I suggested: let's say you get to the foul line. Guess what? The slowing down can help cool down super hot Rudy Gay, and while in free throw mode, you can take a moment to adjust your defensive settings and POE's to adjust to what was happening to you, without burning a time out. At what point in the 4th quarter did you ever make any of those adjustments? You didn't.

[ForeverVersatile]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I get that you were making those shots during the game, and they maybe could fall when you took them. But the risk of them not falling in that situation was what you saw: fast breaks. So that late in the game, that risk becomes unacceptable with a lead.

So you take different shots and adapt your offense. Plus, adapting your offense from what you did earlier in the game is exactly what becomes more successful against an opponent late in the game. What worked before won't keep working. Expand your attack tool kit.

Another benefit of what I suggested: let's say you get to the foul line. Guess what? The slowing down can help cool down super hot Rudy Gay, and while in free throw mode, you can take a moment to adjust your defensive settings and POE's to adjust to what was happening to you, without burning a time out. At what point in the 4th quarter did you ever make any of those adjustments? You didn't.

There is no adjustments to make for getting dunked on and a fadeaway 3 going in. You can't adjust to something you don't know is going to happen.

So what should I have done set limit perimeter shots and give up drives inside or protect the paint and give up the 3?

You can't take everything away, but you can try to force people into tough shots. If the game wants a certain ending it will happen. How do you suppose I made that terrible game winner?

[Taer]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

a) how teaching others will help in overcoming momentums? (if such thing exists)
b) how do I know whether my next opponent is ethical or not when I hit "play next game in Road To Playoffs"?

Teaching others the fundamentals of SIMBall will make them more reliant on actual basketball strategy and PoE. As they rely on these things more, they will be looking to exploit the problem aspects less and less. Most people want to play Tim Duncan as Tim Duncan would play himself in a game ... teach them how to do this and they will be playing and expecting more reality in their game.

As far as your opponents - right now the only choice is to get involved with the right organizers and play within a structure that promotes the right values.

As 2K re-enables features online such as specific lobbies that cater to specific game-play choices hopefully the random play will improve over time.

As I said it is going to take a very long time for the Online community to reach the promised land. It is not something that you have to like, it just is reality.

[RodionMaZ]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I use to regularly blow people out by 20+ but now a double digit win period is almost impossible.

Well, I lost by 29 points last night in RtP. The opponent was very consistent with his 3 pt shooting and I kept making bad shots. Dunno why I didn't have any momentum in my favor. Maybe I was so bad on offense that even the game decided to not bother (:

[RodionMaZ]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Teaching others the fundamentals of SIMBall will make them more reliant on actual basketball strategy and PoE. As they rely on these things more, they will be looking to exploit the problem aspects less and less. Most people want to play Tim Duncan as Tim Duncan would play himself in a game ... teach them how to do this and they will be playing and expecting more reality in their game.

As far as your opponents - right now the only choice is to get involved with the right organizers and play within a structure that promotes the right values.

Looks like you're answering different question. I didn't asked "where should I go to experience better ball game". I asked how to overcome the frustration of the phantom of the momentum in ranked online play. I almost gave up online because of this. I haven't played much online since the last patch and I'm yet to encounter those frustrating moments again (if thet weren't addressed or even didn't existed at all).

And I seriously don't understand how teaching others will help them to not experience "momentum runs" against me. It's like when they are playing "dumb" then they receive some artificial aid. But when they are playing sim basketball then there is no hidden help and I will blow them with ease by 20+ pts as I used to do so in previous NBA 2k games?