So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

[Taer]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Accepting this is like agreeing to play video-game and not basketball.

No. Reading the ai's logic in adjustment is just you, as a sideline coach, understanding how to adjust to changes being made by your peer on the other side of the court.

The ai is not strong enough to emulate different coaching profiles perfectly. There are going to be some basic constants from game to game so if you are of the belief that the resulting adjustments create an artificial environment or break your immersion then you need to react to these things to prevent the artificial or immersion breaking events from happening in the first place.

As I said about page 10 of this thread, I think the 2k team needs to make further improvements to things like ai roster utilization and play manipulation. So, I'm not giving them a pass on anything here.

What has changed recently, is my ability to keep the basketball in 2K real in the games I play.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Yeah, what is that guy talking about? It's not like he's a developer or anything.

To be fair, maybe they're not aware of it. I will believe that they didn't INTENTIONALLY put it in the game. I will give them the benefit of the doubt in that regards.

However, it's so consistent to some users, it's really hard to ignore it.

[JerzeyReign]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Just think, if guys would have posted their games in this thread of their 3rd quarter concerns it would have been seen and noted by Beluba and Da Czar.

Instead, guys are trying to take pop shots instead of trying to show them what you're referring to smh.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Just think, if guys would have posted their games in this thread of their 3rd quarter concerns it would have been seen and noted by Beluba and Da Czar.

Instead, guys are trying to take pop shots instead of trying to show them what you're referring to smh.

Well, I'm broadcasting now. Don't know how to archive...

[JerzeyReign]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Well, I'm broadcasting now. Don't know how to archive...

Go the wrench next to your name on the left side of your screen on the twitch site. Go to channel/video tab and halfway down their should be a question asking if you want all your broadcasts archived.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I think you're mis-interpreting what Czar said in the sim hangout. Yes, we tune the AI differently across the various difficulty levels... this is an obvious necessity to ensure that the AI is more of a challenge on the higher levels. This mainly comes in the form of attribute boosts, shot % boosts, and reaction times to certain events. However, these "boosts" if that's what you want to call them are set at the outset of the game... they don't dynamically rubber band up or down to artificially manufacture runs or to keep the game close.

The AI, however, DOES make adjustments constantly as the game goes on. So something that might be working for you in the 1st half, may not (and probably won't) give you the same success in the 2nd.

What Czar was referring to when he said that we'd be eliminating AI boosts as the AI gets smarter over time is that we'd no longer need to boost things like attributes and shot %'s to make the AI competitive. In fact, on All-Star and below, the AI actually has to be nerfed in comparison to the user to allow more people to keep up.

So I've said this just about every year since 2K11 and will continue to say it... there is absolutely ZERO rubber banding code in our game and there never will be. It would take a ton of extra effort to implement something like that and no one on the gameplay team would stand for it.

If you're seeing wild momentum swings and blown leads either offline or online, Czar gave the best advice at the start of this thread... you need to adjust your game.

Thanks a ton for jumping in and correcting this for all of us. I'm really glad to get this feedback.

So, I'm wrong about this "rubber band" thing, and I accept that, gladly. It's terrific to have this kind of engagement here.

I do have a follow up question, if you're willing to respond again. Obviously, what I've interpreted about what I've been observing in the game these years has been wrong. My question is, though, how many events in a game does it take for the momentum system to switch and become highly weighted to either team?

I ask because there are times in the game where it seems to me, as a user, I may miss a shot that is a good shot, set up by a play after a few passes with a pretty open look, with a lead and a stable game dynamic going on, and then. . . just like that I can see the CPU convert to a bucket in a way that tells me instantly the momentum swing is is full effect.

It may happen in the following way: my shot misses and then the CPU either makes a fast break and scores, or the CPU takes and makes a (purposely) open 3 with a low rated 3 point shooter, or the CPU guard plows to the basket knocking over my big in perfect position to defend and scores with an and-one on the back end.

In each of these kinds of situation, the animations show some unlikely event that looks like it defies physics and CPU player look much faster to the ball and through the court. I can literally see it with one possession, and know the momentum has shifted, because of the successful low percentage play or the ball morphing some other physics impossible animation. The animations make it look like the animation system is being stretched to create an unlikely, predetermined result.

So, if there's no game balance "rubber band" code under the hood, my question is, how does it seem that momentum can suddenly swing so wildly in one possession on one play, not even set up by a couple of bad user possessions and a couple of let's start to get hot CPU possessions. It seems like the momentum swing happens with just one play.

If it's not rubber band coding, then what does it take to create a momentum swing? Because to me, and maybe to other people who play, it seems like the game just conveniently "catches fire" with no set up for the CPU when the CPU is losing.

Or, as in my previous comment, I've even seen some odd user catch up situations in the first quarter where I can purposely fall behind and then purposely take bad ill advised 3's with a bad shooter and change momentum to close the gap.

Thanks. And just to be clear, I'm not in any way disputing your explanation. I accept it 100%. I'm just asking a follow up to try to understand what I see happening in the game. As I said in another previous comment, I do change the user strategy and style of play when the CPU makes its adjustments. It just feels like, as closely as I watch the CPU, the CPU may go from adjustment to big hot streak in just one or two possessions.

Once again, I really appreciate you jumping in to correct my misunderstanding of the game.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Just think, if guys would have posted their games in this thread of their 3rd quarter concerns it would have been seen and noted by Beluba and Da Czar.

Instead, guys are trying to take pop shots instead of trying to show them what you're referring to smh.

Just to be clear, are you talking to me?

Not all of us have the video skills. If your standard for people to comment on the game is that people have to shut up unless they are able to post video, I think you're out of line.

I agree people should comment in a respectful way, that's not my point. But that goes for all sides. I understand your intention, but if you're talking to me with this, I think you're out of line.

[gjdj]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

basketball is a game of runs. i enjoy the fact that no lead is comfortable, as is so in real life.

[Da_Czar]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

wisebrk, it's all just words and can't be used as a proof, even if it is said by Da Czar, because he might be obliged to deny existence of "momentums" by his employer.

Do not try to "explain" how I am bad at the game. Look at the examples in my videos posted before and tell me: what exactly my opponent did right and what I did wrong when he suddenly resurrected his game in the second half and I started throwing bricks

Ok. So you can officially declare the validity of any of my statements based on the fairy tale theory that YOU created on what Im can and can not say ? That is cringe worthy logic.

[kevroman]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Truth be told-- A 3 point shot with the same player being down 10 points anytime throughout the game will go in more frequently than the same shot when the team is up by 10 points. Maybe this is occurring b/c the game is evening out the shot percentages and the only reason that you were up 10 or down by 10 is b/c your shot percentages are either too low or too high. Go ahead and test it out- if you are down by 10 points- let your opponent shoot 3s until you climb your way back. More often than not they will miss a large majority of those shots.. and btw- don't say step your game up.. I play mostly online and my record is somewhere around 180-60-- and I'm a sim baller who runs plays.

[RodionMaZ]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Ok. So you can officially declare the validity of any of my statements based on the fairy tale theory that YOU created on what Im can and can not say ? That is cringe worthy logic.

It's not a fairy tale. It's based off my observations on the game. If I didn't notice any suspicious in-game behaviour like nerfing/penalising my players so they suddenly would miss open shots, layups, lose rebound battles, etc while being fully rested when opponent is on the run, then I wouldn't say a word.

I'm almost ok with the fact that game maybe boosts the opponent to aid him with the run. But i'm not ok with the situation when I have to play perfect game, be on and off the ball all the time to stay on track during the runs otherwise my superstarts will play like a backyard team.

All I ask is the option to either turn that off or the ability to match with the opponents who agreee too to play without any artificial momentums.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

It's not a fairy tale. It's based off my observations on the game. If I didn't notice any suspicious in-game behaviour like nerfing/penalising my players so they suddenly would miss open shots, layups, lose rebound battles, etc while being fully rested when opponent is on the run, then I wouldn't say a word.

I'm almost ok with the fact that game maybe boosts the opponent to aid him with the run. But i'm not ok with the situation when I have to play perfect game, be on and off the ball all the time to stay on track during the runs otherwise my superstarts will play like a backyard team.

All I ask is the option to either turn that off or the ability to match with the opponents who agreee too to play without any artificial momentums.

You know I've believed the same about the "rubber band" stuff as you. But I think you're over the line here to the extent that you're suggesting Czar is being dishonest. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in his history with the community to remotely suggest he's not being straight up, as he always has been, from the years before he got the (well deserved) 2k gig to the last year he's been with 2k.

Beluba has been solid too. Remember, these guys are not in the marketing department, and I won't mention names, but we all know those guys have seriously over promised and disappeared when their marketing spin turns out to be gas.

This is why I'm willing to believe Czar over my own "lyin' eyes" on this. There are maybe other possible explanations for what we think we're seeing. My question about how runs get triggered was my attempt to try to come up with an alternate possible explanation, or at least another factor.

The 2k default answer is that we as players just don't keep up with CPU adjustments and don't observe well enough what the CPU is doing to prevent the CPU adjustment triggered run that we interpret as "rubber band." That's probably true in a lot of cases. I don't think that's particularly true in my case, as I can pick up CPU patterns and POE's pretty well, and I play good on ball defense as a default (much easier to do in this year's game, especially post patch 3, thanks 2k!)

So I'm hoping we can get past any destructive argument to see if there are other possible reasons for what we as players are observing. I hope the devs can engage with us in that conversation.

That's not going to happen though if we set up an attack-defend dynamic of accusations with the 2k team. And Czar, I hope you can recognize that your credibility bucket around here is high. I can understand the reflex to defend yourself, but please don't get sucked down that hole. There are better conversations to be had, and I really appreciate (and have frequently spoken up for) all you do for the game.

[xzfgzfg]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

basketball is a game of runs. i enjoy the fact that no lead is comfortable, as is so in real life.

[luijo]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Do I need to adjust my game if I'm playing good basketball ?I mean, last night I was playing against GSW, I was ATL. I didn't experienced crazy runs, except a 12-2 run in the beginning of the game, and GS started another one, to end the 1st quarter 14-12. After that neither team got on a lead bigger than 4 pts.

What I did experienced was, an incredibly frustrating 5-6 from the field with less than 5 seconds remaining on the shoot clock.I was playing great defense, but every time I stopped a play, AI didn't knew what to do for few seconds just to make a contested jumpshot, and keep the game closed. So, in my opinion I didn't needed to change my defensive approach, because I was forcing bad shots, that's good D. The problem is that my opponent keeps making them.

4th quarter, 20 seconds remaining, I was up 61-60... I missed a wide open 3pt with Milsap, I was ok with it because he's an average to good 3pt shooter. GS started the break, they were looking to get open Barnes, I read the play and the play broke once again, Curry was standing in the 3pt line, I closed in with Teague, he started doing dribble moves and ended passing me, Horford came in to help, Curry was unable to pass Horford, forcing a contested jumper, and the ball magically wrapped trough Horford's hand.... 2pts, GS in the lead 62-61, 8 seconds left.

I was ready to throw the controller with the PS4 and the headset through the window.I ended winning the game with a Milsap's mid range jumper after a pick and pop, but damn... If the game isn't helping the ai to make games closer, I don't know what it is.

Stepping my game up isn't an option. I always manage to shoot high 50% and able to keep the cpu in low 50%, but most of the games end being close. It's an option to learn the way CPU plays, and the patterns it use, but I'm against that, because that's cheating, I'm always looking to play the most realistic way possible.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I was playing great defense, but every time I stopped a play, AI didn't knew what to do for few seconds just to make a contested jumpshot, and keep the game closed.

This is what I have seen in my games, too.

What happens is, I'm playing really strong on ball defense, taking away the CPU's first, second, and maybe third options. The CPU has a weak scorer in the high post with a very low midrange or fadeway rating, and just as the shot clock is about to expire, the CPU player makes a well contested, low percentage shot. Or maybe it's a 3 from a bad 3 point shooter, even a contested one. Or a drive to the lane by a guard who literally knocks my big to the ground (no charge) to get to the hoop, and a foul is called for an and one.

And that's when I know the run is coming, and the next several possessions will feature almost all the dice rolls going against me, from rebounds, to fouls, to shots, to loose balls to steals. And it happens most likely if I have a decent or double digit lead.

So that's when I make my adjustments to try to wait it out and weather it.

So maybe if there's no "rubber band" boost to attributes or ratings once the game starts, then my next suspect is the momentum engine.

i don't actually know from the devs how the momentum engine works or what it does to a team, and what it takes to trigger it. I know good defensive plays, steals, etc. can trigger momentum. And I know that an individual player who gets hot gets temporary stat or attribute boosts.

But what actually happens to players or dice roll calculations for a whole team when momentum increases, and what events trigger that dynamic? And does momentum automatically just shift independent of events in the game? In other words, does momentum kind of ebb and flow in the system, being influenced by events, but not wholly determined by events?