So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

[ForeverVersatile]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I think there is a lot of truth in the theory that we remember the bad shots that go in against us and forget the ones we hit. As I stated earlier in the thread, I LIKE that basketball and 2K are built on runs. Rare is the game where you don't see a few runs of double digits (12-2, 10-0, 20-6, etc.). The issue I have is with the execution and I think that is what most of the other "negative" posters are saying, even if it is coming across as "2K is cheating me."

So we talk adjustments. The first issue is that the adjustments simply don't seem evident to me when these runs are occurring other than fast breaks. Again, it is almost always the 3rd quarter and the CPU doesn't change what they are doing both offensively or defensively. I've looked with both my eyes and at the stat sheet. Same threes. Same attempts to penetrate, kick out, post up, etc. If I saw the AI start using the PG to penetrate and kick out for open threes instead of posting up like they did in the 1st half, then fine. That makes sense. I simply am not seeing that.

Same with on defense. I'm getting the same shots, just simply missing them.

I'm using the same bigs (usually Monroe and Drummond) but suddenly struggle to grab defensive rebounds.

What I do see adjusted is MY TEAM. And this is what frustrates me the most. Suddenly, without changing strategy, my guys stop getting back on D and I get killed on transition points. Suddenly my AI starts making horrible decisions on who to pick up in transition or even in the half court, resulting in me going to cover my man and discovering a teammate has made an awful decision to join me. Or my big is sucked in to trying to pressure ball handler and half court and let his man get behind for an easy layup. Again, no strategy changes, just MY TEAM suddenly acting differently. And that is what is more frustrating than anything else. Missing shots I can handle. Guys get cold. Teams get cold. Other team gets hot. But first, make it happen at different points in the game, not predominately in the 3rd quarter and second, don't make my AI teammates suddenly turn into idiots who make ridiculous choics on who to pick up on D and how to get back on D. These aren't turnovers I'm getting beat in transition on but simple rebound situations.

Again, I don't think 2k's intent is to cheat us or even to have some super comeback, keep it close mode. I think their intent is admirable: have runs just like basketball does IRL. I just think the execution is really flawed.

Exactly! no one makes this stuff up. When myself or the user i'm playing against can't buy a bucket for almost a whole quarter no matter how much ball movement was involved or the play being run...yadda, yadda, yadda. Even if the game wanted someone to call a time out, i think that should be placed on the user and not the game to determine what you should or shouldn't be doing.

I would like developer to tell me that there isn't a code to allow for more exciting finishes to games. Iv'e seen way too many come backs, game winners and buzzer beaters to not think so.

I'll leave this video here for anyone to make their own observations. The video starts right at the end of the 3rd quarter. Mind you that the best player on the Kings team, Demarcus Cousins does not even get a touch. Rudy Gay just dunks on everyone and makes a fade away 3 even though there was ample time for him to square up for the shot.

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_7Dg3EvITpk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

While i have the devs attention please look at this. These type of NBA Jam dunks shouldn't happen, especially well contested ones. What is being done about this short of thing?

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nme7ZfQ0NsI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[The 24th Letter]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

So the last few pages have essentially been: "thanks for posting, people that had a hand in making the game, but I'm going to completely disregard what your saying and post what I think" lol

What Mike said makes it pretty clear for me, once we start to phase out the artificial attribute raises that the CPU gets on higher levels, the less overall BS well see...

[RodionMaZ]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

So the last few pages have essentially been: "thanks for posting, people that had a hand in making the game, but I'm going to completely disregard what your saying and post what I think" lol

What Mike said makes it pretty clear for me, once we start to phase out the artificial attribute raises that the CPU gets on higher levels, the less overall BS well see...

Yeah, but what about online? How to cut BS there?

[The 24th Letter]

So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Yeah, but what about online? How to cut BS there?

Couldn't tell you man, I can't speak for online.

I do know that as far as head to head, it's not something I experience. Honestly I could've used some comeback code in the 2k tournament I participated in last week, cost me $200, lol

[ghxfu]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

basketball is a game of runs. i enjoy the fact that no lead is comfortable, as is so in real life.

[Comduklakis]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

So the last few pages have essentially been: "thanks for posting, people that had a hand in making the game, but I'm going to completely disregard what your saying and post what I think" lol

What Mike said makes it pretty clear for me, once we start to phase out the artificial attribute raises that the CPU gets on higher levels, the less overall BS well see...

I can't speak for others, but that is NOT what my post said at all. Instead to play off your "quote" and paraphrase, I am saying, "Thank you for posting, people who had a hand in making the game, however while your intent may not be to have hard coding for "keeping it close," there may be unintended effects from something else (momentum, runs, evening out stats, etc.), just like there are with all kinds of other coding, and the EXECUTION of momentum and runs (which basketball is a game of, I get that) is IMO, poor."

[jk31]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

basketball is a game of runs. i enjoy the fact that no lead is comfortable, as is so in real life.

But in real life a team has to make changes to start a run. Not in NBA 2k15...

[Taer]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Yeah, but what about online? How to cut BS there?

1: Play ethical opponents

2: Teach each individual gamer, one-by-one, the attitudes and fundamentals of playing "legit".

It will take a long time.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I can't speak for others, but that is NOT what my post said at all. Instead to play off your "quote" and paraphrase, I am saying, "Thank you for posting, people who had a hand in making the game, however while your intent may not be to have hard coding for "keeping it close," there may be unintended effects from something else (momentum, runs, evening out stats, etc.), just like there are with all kinds of other coding, and the EXECUTION of momentum and runs (which basketball is a game of, I get that) is IMO, poor."

If you look back at the thread, this is pretty much what I was wondering about and asking about. But what I understand Beluba to be saying is:

1. Every possession's success is independently determined by the quality of the shot taken, which is dependent on who takes it and from where and how well defended.
2. There is no "momentum" system other than if a player gets hot. The player (not the team per se) is hot, and maybe that player has badges that affect some teammates, but there is no team based "momentum" system that creates runs.
3. The only thing that "evens out" stats is the law of averages.

In the game, what we see as runs caused by some under the hood logic is really a function of chance and probability. So, imagine we do two sets of coin flips, with each set including 80 flips (think: possessions).


In the first set, we might get 43 heads and 37 tails. In the other, we might get 39 heads and 41 tails, all by random chance. There could be other outcomes, with the highest probability at 40 heads and 40 tails, but still more likely in any set that it won't come out that even.


But if you chart out the heads/tails sequence of both sets of 80, it won't look even (see example below). We will see "runs" of heads and "runs" of tails. Then when you stack up the two sequences next to each other, the "runs" for one set won't exactly coincide" with the runs of others, but we may see places where one side is having a run on heads (say, successful baskets) while at the same time the other side is having a "run" on tails (unsuccessful shot attempts).

XXXOOXOXOXOOOXXOXXOXOXXOXOXXOXOOXXXOOOXO X = 21/40
XOOXOXOOXXXOOXOOOOXOXXXOOOOXOOXOOOXXXOXX X = 18/40

Now imagine experiencing that as a player while it seems like our shots are missing while the CPU's shots are falling. And on top of that, maybe a CPU player is getting hot and the result is some bad or broken animations where it looks like the CPU is "cheating."



As this is happening, we are already frustrated because we're losing and then we see that point guard rebound over our big and the ball goes through the big's head and we are PISSED. And what I'm saying when this happens to me is, in between four letter words, "This is classic 2k CPU comeback cheese! There it goes again!" Meanwhile, during our "runs," when our PG bounces a pass to a big on a PnR through the groin of the defender, we are all like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.


While we're on the down side though, as players, we may panic a little and force low percentage shots, which will only make the situation worse. Or, we can time out, reassess, take a new strategy and focus on one play at a time execution and good defense. Calling time out doesn't halt CPU team "momentum" (which doesn't technically exist), but it might help cool off a hot CPU player, which may be almost as good, especially if he's a dimer or floor general and helping other CPU teammates beat us.


Of course, playing 2k is not coin flipping, and individual shot success is not a fixed 50-50 probability. How we play as players will influence user and CPU shot success. The better we play on both ends, the more we stack the odds of success in our favor. But even if by the way we play we can stack the coin to our favor - not a 50-50 coin but a weighted 52-48 coin - if we were to conduct my coin toss experiment again, we will still see little "runs." They would just tend to favor us more.


That at least is what I take from what Beluba is saying. Beluba, if you're still around, please correct me where I'm wrong.

UPDATE: Hey Czar, I just watched simhangout, and heard you about this thread. I get the frustration, and I agree with everything you said. But just layin' it out there, wouldn't it have been worth mentioning over several minutes that someone in the thread came up and called out what was going on, and others added support? Just like the devs tell guys giving feedback not to just focus on one thing and say the game sucks, you guys on the dev side - in my opinion - would be better off if you could avoid the temptation to paint threads and communities like this with one broad brush. Just a thought.

[Jrocc23]

So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

So with that said, besides MC mode, what is the point of playing HoF, what are the benefits of it?

I guess I am just so used to playing 2K and playing on HOF, that anything else is just too easy. I never mess w/ the sliders in 2K either.

I can almost go undefeated in MC where you have dumb teammates for the most part. And can go undefeated if not that, lose 1-3 games in a season if I am playing as the whole team in most 2Ks.

But to be on topic, I am not saying it isn't true because I've seen some strange things myself and felt like 2K wanted them to come back, but I honestly don't believe in scripted 3rd quarter momentum shifts.

[madmax52277]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

The things i'm seeing right now.

The cpu are making unbelievable shots, and this comeback code seems to be my teammates. if they do their jobs, boxout contest shots, proper help defense outcomes would be different. so my questions...are these things happening base on my team strengths are weaknesses. and do i have to use training on teams that are weak in certain area.

Things are slowly starting to make sense to me, but bogus stuff i see leave me piss off a little bit.

[RodionMaZ]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

1: Play ethical opponents

2: Teach each individual gamer, one-by-one, the attitudes and fundamentals of playing "legit".

It will take a long time.

a) how teaching others will help in overcoming momentums? (if such thing exists)
b) how do I know whether my next opponent is ethical or not when I hit "play next game in Road To Playoffs"?

[JerzeyReign]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I play A LOT of online ranked. See, thats a different animal. I wholeheartedly believe they have a 'keep the game close' mechanic working for them when it comes to online. No matter how big I get an early lead I seem to have to hang on to win. My only hope is to frustrate the opponent long enough to make him quit.

I'd love to see someone post full game stats of a blowout win (or close to finish since most guys quit).

The AI shouldn't adjust for the user in a PvP game. If they don't adjust then they just get burned every time down the floor. Instead of auto for adjustments on defense it should say 'None' which means they are just gonna play basic straight up defense.

I use to regularly blow people out by 20+ but now a double digit win period is almost impossible.

[Comduklakis]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

The things i'm seeing right now.

The cpu are making unbelievable shots, and this comeback code seems to be my teammates. if they do their jobs, boxout contest shots, proper help defense outcomes would be different. so my questions...are these things happening base on my team strengths are weaknesses. and do i have to use training on teams that are weak in certain area.

Things are slowly starting to make sense to me, but bogus stuff i see leave me piss off a little bit.

Exactly. That was what I said earlier. My team goes cold and the other team gets hot? No prob. Happens, even if does seem to be constantly the third quarter when I have the lead.

But what is frustrating is guys suddenly forgetting how to box out, picking up the wrong man on D, causing the other team to get a series of layups by being uncovered behind the defense, and by suddenly failing to get back in transition after doing it in the entire rest of the game and suddenly (without me changing any strategy) making stupid choices in picking up guys in transition to make it (seemingly) as easy as possible for the CPU to score on fastbreaks.

That is the kind of the stuff that makes me think the issue is execution of having the normal ebb and flow and runs of a NBA game.

[Comduklakis]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

If you look back at the thread, this is pretty much what I was wondering about and asking about. But what I understand Beluba to be saying is:

1. Every possession's success is independently determined by the quality of the shot taken, which is dependent on who takes it and from where and how well defended.
2. There is no "momentum" system other than if a player gets hot. The player (not the team per se) is hot, and maybe that player has badges that affect some teammates, but there is no team based "momentum" system that creates runs.
3. The only thing that "evens out" stats is the law of averages.

In the game, what we see as runs caused by some under the hood logic is really a function of chance and probability. So, imagine we do two sets of coin flips, with each set including 80 flips (think: possessions).


In the first set, we might get 43 heads and 37 tails. In the other, we might get 39 heads and 41 tails, all by random chance. There could be other outcomes, with the highest probability at 40 heads and 40 tails, but still more likely in any set that it won't come out that even.


But if you chart out the heads/tails sequence of both sets of 80, it won't look even (see example below). We will see "runs" of heads and "runs" of tails. Then when you stack up the two sequences next to each other, the "runs" for one set won't exactly coincide" with the runs of others, but we may see places where one side is having a run on heads (say, successful baskets) while at the same time the other side is having a "run" on tails (unsuccessful shot attempts).

XXXOOXOXOXOOOXXOXXOXOXXOXOXXOXOOXXXOOOXO X = 21/40
XOOXOXOOXXXOOXOOOOXOXXXOOOOXOOXOOOXXXOXX X = 18/40

Now imagine experiencing that as a player while it seems like our shots are missing while the CPU's shots are falling. And on top of that, maybe a CPU player is getting hot and the result is some bad or broken animations where it looks like the CPU is "cheating."



As this is happening, we are already frustrated because we're losing and then we see that point guard rebound over our big and the ball goes through the big's head and we are PISSED. And what I'm saying when this happens to me is, in between four letter words, "This is classic 2k CPU comeback cheese! There it goes again!" Meanwhile, during our "runs," when our PG bounces a pass to a big on a PnR through the groin of the defender, we are all like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.


While we're on the down side though, as players, we may panic a little and force low percentage shots, which will only make the situation worse. Or, we can time out, reassess, take a new strategy and focus on one play at a time execution and good defense. Calling time out doesn't halt CPU team "momentum" (which doesn't technically exist), but it might help cool off a hot CPU player, which may be almost as good, especially if he's a dimer or floor general and helping other CPU teammates beat us.


Of course, playing 2k is not coin flipping, and individual shot success is not a fixed 50-50 probability. How we play as players will influence user and CPU shot success. The better we play on both ends, the more we stack the odds of success in our favor. But even if by the way we play we can stack the coin to our favor - not a 50-50 coin but a weighted 52-48 coin - if we were to conduct my coin toss experiment again, we will still see little "runs." They would just tend to favor us more.


That at least is what I take from what Beluba is saying. Beluba, if you're still around, please correct me where I'm wrong.

UPDATE: Hey Czar, I just watched simhangout, and heard you about this thread. I get the frustration, and I agree with everything you said. But just layin' it out there, wouldn't it have been worth mentioning over several minutes that someone in the thread came up and called out what was going on, and others added support? Just like the devs tell guys giving feedback not to just focus on one thing and say the game sucks, you guys on the dev side - in my opinion - would be better off if you could avoid the temptation to paint threads and communities like this with one broad brush. Just a thought.

I get what you are saying and the developers. But, these same developers will tell you in other threads that coding isn't an exact science. Change one thing you can impact another. For whatever reason, intent or not (and I 100% believe the developers aren't lying, so no intent) these 3rd quarter momentum shifts that lead to runs seem quite a bit more than a coin flip.

I'm well aware of the laws of probability. Flip a coin 100 times and it may land heads 99 out of 100. Do it again and it may be 51/49. However if you flip the same coin over and over millions or billions of times, it should average out to 50/50. I get that. It's a major plot point in a very famous play by Tom Stoppard. But to continue on the need to flip the coin more than 100 times to achieve a true "law of averages," I've played enough games to see that the momentum shifts are far more than a flip of a coin. And that momentum shift too often involves my players being struck dumb rather than the CPU simply locking me down on D and making good shots (which happens every night in the NBA) or the CPU making strategy changes that I fail to respond too.

I'm not a coder so I can't say exactly why the situation occurs, I can merely say it does. For whatever reason 2K struggles with making runs and momentum shifts realistic, yet denies that their is any code for runs, evening out of stats, or momentum shifts, other than the law of averages and each play being independent of the previous one (save the "hot" factor in shooters which shouldn't have an impact on my players ability to rebound on the defensive glass, pick up the right man on D, get back in transition, etc.).

Hope that makes sense.