Hyperbole in ratings...

[Swagger Jack]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Close Shot =/= Mid-Range Shot



22 PPG on 19 FGA isn't dominant, particularly when the player is bringing nothing else to the table.



Good luck finding anyone who agrees that opinion.

It's obvious either player would be a significantly better fit next to Nerlens Noel simply due to spacing, much less the defense and rebounding either would provide.

Nevermind that the Knicks and Wolves are significantly better than last year due to the contributions of said players, while the Sixers had FOUR times as many wins this time last year.

bruh. come on. the knicks and wolves have better pieces as a whole. they have go-to offensive players. knockdown shooters, actual offensive systems, somewhat of a bench. the 76ers have none of this. only dropping KAT or KP into this setup still isnt going to change the teams outcome much more than whats going on now. the 76ers are just trash

Yea gotta agree that's probably going to go down as the dumbest thing I've seen all day. When you talk about Towns who has Rubio dishing, has Lavine to kick out to, has Wiggins to kick out to, has GARNETT as a mentor, has PRINCE on the wing...I mean he is free to do WHATEVER he wants with the opposing team paying him virtually no attention...

Move over to Porzingis again, you got Melo, you have Calderon, you have AFFLALO I mean is anyone Triple-teaming Porzingis? With Melo on the court? (I guess I shouldn't expect you to know the answer to that question because clearly you'd rather stare at a stat sheet than watch a basketball game but I digress).

Okafor is the only player who is facing double and triple teams night in and night out, he has a MUCH heavier load to carry and again (reading comprehension ftw) COMPARED TO THE OTHER ROOKIES Okafor is still dominating...and I mean have you seen Nerlens? He's terrible, and anyone that thinks Towns or Porzingis would change that just doesn't know basketball tbh.

Here's some gameplay footage from the sport you clearly don't watch.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AXNYEVnpBzQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

But Porzingis is better right?

[ThatMichiganFan]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

I don't know how else to put this, Okafor is not as good as KAT or The Porzingod.

Yes Okafor is a beast on offense, there are very few players who can stop him one-on-one. But in every other aspect of the game, Okafor is a -. He is basically a doormat on defense, is a poor rebounder for his size, and it seems like he can be a problem off the court.

Off Rating: 87.3
Def Rating: 107.0
Net Rating: -19.7

The Sixers as a team have a -13.4 net rating, which means that the team is worse when Okafor is on the floor. Meanwhile, Porzingis has a NetRTG of 1.7 and KAT has a NetRTG of -1.7.

Players with a better NetRTG than Okafor:

• Drew Gooden
• Montrezl Harrell
• Nerlens Noel
• Kobe Bryant

That list is not a good one for Okafor. He is very talented offensively and definitely more polished than Porzingis or Anthony-Towns, but if you look at his game as a whole, he is not as good as either.

[JKSportsGamer1984]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

You can't just go strictly by stats to rate players smh. Stats don't account for degree of difficulty, defenders you're going up against, the pace of the game, etc... You have to also use the eye test.

[ThatMichiganFan]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

You can't just go strictly by stats to rate players smh. Stats don't account for degree of difficulty, defenders you're going up against, the pace of the game, etc... You have to also use the eye test.

I agree. Stats do not mean everything, but the eye test agrees with me. Despite Okafors dominance on the offensive end of the court, he is below average in every other facet of the game. When he tries, he gets pushed around on the defensive end. And often he is just a bystander as someone drives into the lane for an easy bucket. Porzingis and Anthony-Towns also have their limitations, but despite being less polished overall than Okafor, they have a positive effect on more areas of the game. Both have more range than Okafor, and both are clearly better rebounders than Okafor. And both are lightyears ahead of Okafor defensively. Porzingis is skinny and can be bullied in the post, but he has quick feet and great instincts he uses to block shots and get steals. Anthony-Towns is very good defensively, and he uses his length and feet well. He also has good instincts, specifically at the rim, averaging 2.0 blocks per game.

I am not an NBA scout (nor do I claim to be) but Okafor reminds me of a more talented Greg Monroe. A player who is very good on offense, but his struggles on defense limit his overall effectiveness as a player. I think Okafor is more athletic than Monroe, and has a higher ceiling, but I also think that Monroe is a better rebounder. Monroe has worked on his footwork since the beginning of his NBA career, and he has improved defensively. He is still below average due to his slow foot speed, but his improved footwork and positioning have lead to improved defensive ability. Okafor can improve on the defensive side of the ball, but as of now, he is not a good defender.

[Swagger Jack]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

You can't just go strictly by stats to rate players smh. Stats don't account for degree of difficulty, defenders you're going up against, the pace of the game, etc... You have to also use the eye test.

Exactly, the eye test is still undefeated...and I apologize if I presented this thread as a debate of sorts because it was not meant to be, in the case of Porzingis vs Dirk, anyone who thinks Porzingis is better from Mid-range than Dirk is simply doesn't know basketball, regardless of what the stat sheet sayss

I agree. Stats do not mean everything, but the eye test agrees with me. Despite Okafors dominance on the offensive end of the court, he is below average in every other facet of the game. When he tries, he gets pushed around on the defensive end. And often he is just a bystander as someone drives into the lane for an easy bucket. Porzingis and Anthony-Towns also have their limitations, but despite being less polished overall than Okafor, they have a positive effect on more areas of the game. Both have more range than Okafor, and both are clearly better rebounders than Okafor. And both are lightyears ahead of Okafor defensively. Porzingis is skinny and can be bullied in the post, but he has quick feet and great instincts he uses to block shots and get steals. Anthony-Towns is very good defensively, and he uses his length and feet well. He also has good instincts, specifically at the rim, averaging 2.0 blocks per game.

I am not an NBA scout (nor do I claim to be) but Okafor reminds me of a more talented Greg Monroe. A player who is very good on offense, but his struggles on defense limit his overall effectiveness as a player. I think Okafor is more athletic than Monroe, and has a higher ceiling, but I also think that Monroe is a better rebounder. Monroe has worked on his footwork since the beginning of his NBA career, and he has improved defensively. He is still below average due to his slow foot speed, but his improved footwork and positioning have lead to improved defensive ability. Okafor can improve on the defensive side of the ball, but as of now, he is not a good defender.

Well that's common sense and that's really just another case of people (again) not watching games and relying on old information, the facts are Jahlil Okafor is a much better defender and rebounder than any of us really anticipated, his blocks and rebounds (1.3 and 8.0 respectively) are much closer to Porzingis and Towns than we initially thought they would be (Porzingis having 2.0 and 8.1 and Towns having 2.0 and 9.1) Pair that with his obvious offensive supremacy you mentioned his range, again proving you don't actually watch the games (but again I don't blame you, who ACTUALLY watches Sixers games) but Okafor has actually flashed a nice little jumpshot that he can hit, that being another area that he's not as bad as people originally projected him to be...and again pair that with him being BY FAR superior on the offensive end, being on BY FAR the worst team, having BY FAR the least help, yet somehow some way still putting up the most points that is why he is the clear cut front-runner for the rookie of the year.

[Swagger Jack]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Obviously I'm biased as a Sixers fan, but I don't see how Okafor isn't an 80 overall consistently.

He's a better free throw shooter/mid to close range shooter than they said, he's not a bad rebounder, and when someone drives at him he's a good defender.

We just played the Raptors, and in that game Derozan showed how good his mid range shot is. Even in the post he can hit fades with ease.

I'm also a Sixers fan. The Derozan thing? That's actually a joke I'm on the record that anyone that agrees with his mid-range ratings simply doesn't know or watch basketball...that's really all I have to say about that...as for the Porzingis rating, I think that's more hype and ESPN putback dunks etc...and you look at Okafor on the "lowly" Sixers and no one is paying him any attention, that is really the only way to explain that.

[Sleepy59]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Stauff Dislikes bulls. Drose is not a bad midrange shooter, which is stated in many articles. He can't hit 3's and gets blocked a bit more but how many clutch mids has he hit this year? How about all those bank shots? Bulls badges are BARELY touched. And cavs are overpowered its disgusting. I struggle more beating cavs than I do beating any all-star team. And ofc stauff is a cavs fan. Look at Drose's stamina (that of a center) now watch the recent 4 overtime bulls game. Look at droses minutes and listem to the commentators mention butler and rose being the least fatigued.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Agree with stats 95% dictating ratings. Disagree with the rating scale. I still liked it better years ago when very few players even had a 90 in any rating. Now being a 90 in midrange is common even with small sample sizes. Like why is Ilyasova an 88 in midrange because he's shooting 45% from there? He's assisted on all by 2 of his 17 makes from 16-23ft this year, but he's given a more than elite rating from there.

I know consistency is its own rating, but unless I'm wrong, that rating doesn't do much within games. Its more of a chronic rating to balance out stats over multiple games. Now, you can put Ilyasova in and have him bang in every midrange shot with any glimpse of space because he's given an elite rating

[Sleepy59]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

How does drose have a 60 middy again?

http://i.imgur.com/JzlHKXa.jpg

[ThatMichiganFan]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Well that's common sense and that's really just another case of people (again) not watching games and relying on old information, the facts are Jahlil Okafor is a much better defender and rebounder than any of us really anticipated, his blocks and rebounds (1.3 and 8.0 respectively) are much closer to Porzingis and Towns than we initially thought they would be (Porzingis having 2.0 and 8.1 and Towns having 2.0 and 9.1) Pair that with his obvious offensive supremacy you mentioned his range, again proving you don't actually watch the games (but again I don't blame you, who ACTUALLY watches Sixers games) but Okafor has actually flashed a nice little jumpshot that he can hit, that being another area that he's not as bad as people originally projected him to be...and again pair that with him being BY FAR superior on the offensive end, being on BY FAR the worst team, having BY FAR the least help, yet somehow some way still putting up the most points that is why he is the clear cut front-runner for the rookie of the year.

Porzingis has three point range (despite only shooting 30% so far), and KAT has shown a good shooting touch from beyond the arc, shooting 10/23 (43%) although in a limited sample size. Okafor has not shown any three point shooting ability so far in his career.

Player 1

Spoiler

Karl Anthony-Towns

8-16 feet- 24/50 (48%)
16-24 feet- 44/86 (51.9%)

Player 2

Spoiler

Kristaps Porzingis

8-16 feet- 24/78 (30.8%)
16-24 feet- 28/54 (51.9%)

Player 3

Spoiler

Jahlil Okafor

8-16 feet- 35/110 (31.8%)
16-24 feet- 8/32 (25%)

Player 3 is obviously the worst shooter of the trio. He has taken the most shots from 8-24 feet, and shot the worst percentage. His jump shot is just not very good right now.

There is no arguing that the Sixers are worse than the T-Wolves or the Knicks, but it is easy for a talented player to put up good numbers on a bad team. Michael Carter-Williams did the same thing a few years ago when he won the Rookie of the Year award. Now he is getting benched for Jerryd Bayless in Milwaukee. I am not comparing MCW to Okafor (I think Okafor is a better NBA player than MCW), but they had similar situations, in the only competent player on an NBA team.

Okafor is superior on the offensive end, but not by as much as you might think. And he is such a liability on defense that makes him a net negative compared to Towns and Porzingis.

[HowDareI]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Their aren't many times numbers lie, but I will tell you straight up that they are not indicative of Okafor's skill all-around.

I live in Philly, I live for basketball, and I just so happen to have watched almost every Sixers game for the past 15 years of my life...

let's not mention I've played for both good, and bad teams so I can attest to what I'm about to say with first-hand experience.

Okafor is the type of player who plays a lot better when the game matters. Other players go out and get "garbage stats", yet Okafor would rather score when it's a 5 point game, not 25.
I've seen him locked in defensively, rotating and moving his feet...a lot more when it matters than when it doesn't.

You try and be a 7' rookie getting doubled every touch, meanwhile you got Robert Covington as the only guy who can hit a freakin shot.
No guard to initiate the offense, and get in a set to put you in a good position to score...

9 times outta 10, because of how poor this team is put together and playing, Jah gets the ball at about 20 feet from the rim, with less than 10 seconds left on the clock. Forcing him to faceup and drive into defenders...which he's actually pretty good at but he's a lot better in the actually post on the block.

He doesn't rebound as well as he does some nights, because when they start experimenting with weird lineups and he's out on the perimeter switching onto shooters he's in terrible positioning to grab a board. But even so, he still gets enough to be a serviceable rebounder as a rookie.

Same as above, it's hard to block shots covering the PF outside of the paint...but when someone takes it straight to him he's shown an ability to be like Roy Hibbert and play straight up defense and get blocks without jumping.

You can learn defense when you're 7' 260 and have long arms. No one's gonna bully him, and no one can shoot over top of him...he'll learn that soon.

One thing he has that no other rookies do? The offensive ability to DOMINATE someone. Porzingis is weak defensively, Jah showed that. KAT isn't a center, at least not a true one. And Okafor bullied him too.

When you got the reigning ROY, shooters, and a guard like Rubio looking for you 100% it's simple.
When you got Melo, Afflalo, a guy like Lopez to cover up for you on D, and again..a guard like Calderon...simple.

When you got Isaiah Cannan who can't pass or do anything but gun, no point guard play whatsoever, Nerlens who (I love) but can't play pf....it's simple, wait, no....it's a disaster.

And this is why you have to actually watch games to truly speak on what the numbers are showing. I take Okafor over them two any day of the week. You can all disagree but the numbers aren't always showing the whole story.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

How does drose have a 60 middy again?

http://i.imgur.com/JzlHKXa.jpg

They probably are using a combination of NBA.com and BBreference because BBreference doesn't break things down by moving and stationary

[phriscaul]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Yea gotta agree that's probably going to go down as the dumbest thing I've seen all day. When you talk about Towns who has Rubio dishing, has Lavine to kick out to, has Wiggins to kick out to, has GARNETT as a mentor, has PRINCE on the wing...I mean he is free to do WHATEVER he wants with the opposing team paying him virtually no attention...

Move over to Porzingis again, you got Melo, you have Calderon, you have AFFLALO I mean is anyone Triple-teaming Porzingis? With Melo on the court? (I guess I shouldn't expect you to know the answer to that question because clearly you'd rather stare at a stat sheet than watch a basketball game but I digress).

Okafor is the only player who is facing double and triple teams night in and night out, he has a MUCH heavier load to carry and again (reading comprehension ftw) COMPARED TO THE OTHER ROOKIES Okafor is still dominating...and I mean have you seen Nerlens? He's terrible, and anyone that thinks Towns or Porzingis would change that just doesn't know basketball tbh.

Here's some gameplay footage from the sport you clearly don't watch.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AXNYEVnpBzQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

But Porzingis is better right?

thank you for spelling that out. i didnt have the energy to do so lol. i dont see how one could make such a ludicrous statement tbh. you simply have to take into account the other pieces. KAT and KP have pieces around them. benches. coaches with systems. this cant be overlooked bc one wants to make a point so bad. Okafor has no culture in philly right now. no winning mentality. no mentor. no help. no nothing. he's virtually the only offensive threat and defenses hone in on him, night in, night out. there have been many games where KP performs with mediocrity, but the knicks still prevail. why? cus melo, calderon, galloway, afflalo, bench, etc. same in minnesota as you pointed out. i mean even down to gorgui deng who puts together decent, yet meaningful minutes. KP or KAT would just drop into a piss poor organization and turn it around with negative help? i say a person with that argument hasnt watched the game with any detail or historical context at all.

[Sleepy59]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

They probably are using a combination of NBA.com and BBreference because BBreference doesn't break things down by moving and stationary

His moving and standing are both around 60

[ALpineNM]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Going back to the original argument of Dirk's Midrange rating of 89 compared to Porzingis' mid range of 91. I believe even though Dirk has the lower rating he will shoot better during gameplay. I had the same issue with Kawhi Leonard who currently has the 2nd highest 3 point rating in the game at 92. He has a higher 3 point rating than Klay Thompson which bothered me at first however I realized while actually playing the game Klay will hit more 3s. The reason is "Tendency" Ratings. 2k can rate actual attributes using real life %. But this doesn't account for volume, degree of difficulty and overall skill level. Because I'm sure anyone who understands basketball will select Klay as the better 3 point shooter. Same goes for Dirk, his mid range might be rated lower but his tendency is 95 from mid range while Porzingis is a lot lower. I believe this accounts for some of the intangible circumstances that % based statistics cannot account for so even though the actual rating is lower it is balanced a little by the Tendency rating.