2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

[jk31]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

1) That's a nice sentiment, and a nice thing to say, and you're not necessarily wrong, but it's just one of the many things that go into basketball and user skill. Of the top 5 teams that generated the most open shots this past season...one of them made the playoffs..a lot of factors go into that.

2) My argument isn't necessarily that greens should stick around, I don't know what the solution is, but I truly believe a lot of people are remembering the overall balance in those older games and equating it with the ideal shooting system. The entire idea of the meter was brought on because of user feedback on shooting. Some players were unusable because of their sig shots, We'd have a "I can't use Player X" thread every year and a lot of times it did come down to the better shooter...but everyone was in the same boat.

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1) and i never said that because you had the Most open shots is the reason you should win. thats why i mentioned offensive execution. for me that term means that you are able to get the right players into the right spots for them score. May it be steph Curry from deep or lebron James against a mismatch from a switch. a lot of Stuff should determine your success and that is basically my Main point. Just because you time your shot very Well will give you such a significant boost that other parts of the game seem much less important All of a sudden.

[mb625]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

It really is unfortunate that this argument doesn't go very far with the average 2k player. They want a skill gap, and what they see as RNG doesn't fit that. I really wish they'd replicate 2k16's system, where greens were rather difficult comparatively and didn't hit every single time, but I'm afraid that ship has sailed by now. 2k did this to themselves, and now the community can't go back. We're going to be stuck with overly gaudy FG percentages for the foreseeable future.

Even a hybrid where a "green" is a modifier boosting the expected FG percentage seems a pipe dream.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

Most 2K esports players are gamers not hoopers. They're good at mashing buttons.

Exactly and well said. And sounds like Beluba will introduce more of this in 2K22 for a 'skill gap'. On one hand, there should be a learning curve and skill gap, on the other, the 'gamer' mechanics and the gamey things (green shots, badges, glitchy moves) have become more important than gameplay balance and iq.

I think these two statements together make a cogent point. Usually when there is talk of "skill" or a "skill gap" by Youtubers or the game developers they are not referring to what most posters here would probably call Basketball IQ, they are instead referring to video gaming skills (i.e. mastery of controller mechanics as well as the mechanics of the video game itself).

This is the direction 2K has decided to go in and like it or not, it has built a community that for the large part enjoys the game in its current state (or something reasonably near to it) and has shown they will continue to pay for it as such; I would expect things will continue in something akin to its current form until that situation changes.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

1) and i never said that because you had the Most open shots is the reason you should win. thats why i mentioned offensive execution. for me that term means that you are able to get the right players into the right spots for them score. May it be steph Curry from deep or lebron James against a mismatch from a switch. a lot of Stuff should determine your success and that is basically my Main point. Just because you time your shot very Well will give you such a significant boost that other parts of the game seem much less important All of a sudden.

Would hope knowing Steph Curry should shoot 3's, and that LeBron should drive to the basket is like...base level knowledge haha.

but it's like I said, I definitely agree that shot timing shouldn't be the ONLY thing that separates users...In your example though where two users take the exact same shots, and one is more successful because he times better....well, that's simply a part of the game he's better at...and that's always been an element in 2k games. Why should that user be handicapped? That's moreso where my issue lies.

It really is unfortunate that this argument doesn't go very far with the average 2k player. They want a skill gap, and what they see as RNG doesn't fit that. I really wish they'd replicate 2k16's system, where greens were rather difficult comparatively and didn't hit every single time, but I'm afraid that ship has sailed by now. 2k did this to themselves, and now the community can't go back. We're going to be stuck with overly gaudy FG percentages for the foreseeable future.

Even a hybrid where a "green" is a modifier boosting the expected FG percentage seems a pipe dream.

By the end of 2K16's cycle, greens were 100% makes outside of glitches. They were just harder to achieve and defense was a real thing. I think that's what we need to get back to. If greens have to stay that's a fair compromise IMO. Players across all modes seemed to enjoy 2K16, and that's because it was balanced. It's crazy even watching Park gameolay from then, People complain about "whites" that go in now.

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[ksuttonjr76]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

Would hope knowing Steph Curry should shoot 3's, and that LeBron should drive to the basket is like...base level knowledge haha.

but it's like I said, I definitely agree that shot timing shouldn't be the ONLY thing that separates users...In your example though where two users take the exact same shots, and one is more successful because he times better....well, that's simply a part of the game he's better at...and that's always been an element in 2k games. Why should that user be handicapped? That's moreso where my issue lies.
By the end of 2K16's cycle, greens were 100% makes outside of glitches. They were just harder to achieve and defense was a real thing. I think that's what we need to get back to. If greens have to stay that's a fair compromise IMO. Players across all modes seemed to enjoy 2K16, and that's because it was balanced. It's crazy even watching Park gameolay from then, People complain about "whites" that go in now.

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I need to watch some videos on NBA 2K16. I SWEAR that was the game where they introduced the infamous patch late in the year where getting green shots was ridiculously easy. I remember having shooting problems for most of the year, and I'm pretty sure that was the year I was shooting better with CJ Miles than Paul George.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

I need to watch some videos on NBA 2K16. I SWEAR that was the game where they introduced the infamous patch late in the year where getting green shots was ridiculously easy. I remember having shooting problems for most of the year, and I'm pretty sure that was the year I was shooting better with CJ Miles than Paul George.

You're thinking of 2K15....

It was ridiculous, lol

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[jyoung]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

One of the worst design decisions in 2K's history was making 30-foot threes a 90% reliable shot in 2K17 with the introduction of the HOF limitless range badge and the pure sharpshooter archetype (then by 2K19, that reliability percentage would go up to 100%, where it's stayed at for three straight years).

Ever since 2K17, online gameplay has consisted of nothing but zig zagging behind a screen to take a deep three that, even if it's a little bit contested, still has a much better chance of going in than a similarly contested standing layup taken an arm's length away from the rim.

There should be some inherent unreliability in taking 25 to 30 footers that--even with consistently perfect timing--prevents deep threes from being a go-to shot every single trip down the floor.

2K16 was that way, and it's one of the reasons why it was the best and most balanced 2K on the previous generation of consoles. You actually had to know how to score (and defend) at all 3 levels of the court (threes, mids, paint) to win consistently at that game, instead of just knowing how to Curry slide and speedboost glitch back and forth behind a screen into a base 98 logo three like you see in every online possession of 2K21.

I'd even argue that having more missed shots per game actually makes 2K a more skill-based and strategic on-court battle, because when there are more rebound opportunities, centers will get more chances to outshine their matchup on the glass, and your whole team has to become more involved in boxing out, and has to weigh the risk/reward of deciding when to crash or leak, when to intentional foul to prevent a putback, whether it's worth equipping badges like breakstarter, worm, box, and rebound chaser on non-center builds, whether it's worth making a small-ball lineup with better shooting vs. a tall-ball lineup with better rebounding, etc.

Then on offense, everybody who touches the rock has to keep side-eyeing the scoreboard, the gameclock, the shotclock, and their takeover meter to continually weigh the risk/reward of taking a dicey shot like an ultra combo triple crossover logo three versus a more sure shot like a stop & pop free throw line middy instead of how it is in 2K21, where everyone knows that they can just flick up a fading-out-of-bounds 24+ footer at any point in the game and it has equally as good a chance of going in as a catch & shoot set shot from the short corner, since once your shooting ratings get into the 90s, all of your jumpshots, regardless of depth, have roughly the same odds of falling through the net in the post-2K16 shot algorithm.

Shot IQ--specifically, as it relates to the flow and circumstances of an ongoing game--is a skill that has cost many IRL teams their playoff lives (see the Rockets and Celtics in game 7 of their respective 2018 conference finals), but it's a skill that 2K hasn't required of its players since 2K16.

All you have to know since 2K17 is how far back you can green from in the practice gym, and then you just repeat whatever dribble move or screen animation is going to get you an open shot from that furthest possible shooting depth, all game long, with no in-game consequences for pushing your player to his athletic limit on every single shot attempt.

"Take a higher percentage shot!" is a criticism that you'll hear all the time from IRL basketball coaches and commentators, but you'll never hear it said on a 2K court as long as VC's design philosophy is to keep making all the different depths of shots equally greenable for players with a 90+ rating, which is what 90% of the ball-dominant players are using in every competitive online mode except current-roster Play Now.

Real basketball is a game of percentages--maximizing your scoring odds while minimizing your opponents'; knowing when it's OK to risk a 35% PJ Tucker corner three versus making sure that you get the ball into Giannis' Go-Go-Gadget-Hands! so he can attack the paint for an 80% effective rim run or end up with a 70% successful free throw.

2K's dumbed down version of basketball (since 2K17) is just a game of hunting for and preventing green threes, where the only percentages the offense ever has to worry about are the nearest defender's shot contest percentage, if it's one of those rare plays where it happens to get above 30%, because anything under that is E Z GREENZ BAYBEEEEE!

[The 24th Letter]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

^^^^

That's a hell of a breakdown.

I think green releases has essentially become the face of what we dislike, but in reality, it's a combination of the above.

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[MrWrestling3]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

One of the worst design decisions in 2K's history was making 30-foot threes a 90% reliable shot in 2K17 with the introduction of the HOF limitless range badge and the pure sharpshooter archetype (then by 2K19, that reliability percentage would go up to 100%, where it's stayed at for three straight years).

Ever since 2K17, online gameplay has consisted of nothing but zig zagging behind a screen to take a deep three that, even if it's a little bit contested, still has a much better chance of going in than a similarly contested standing layup taken an arm's length away from the rim.

There should be some inherent unreliability in taking 25 to 30 footers that--even with consistently perfect timing--prevents deep threes from being a go-to shot every single trip down the floor.

2K16 was that way, and it's one of the reasons why it was the best and most balanced 2K on the previous generation of consoles. You actually had to know how to score (and defend) at all 3 levels of the court (threes, mids, paint) to win consistently at that game, instead of just knowing how to Curry slide and speedboost glitch back and forth behind a screen into a base 98 logo three like you see in every online possession of 2K21.

I'd even argue that having more missed shots per game actually makes 2K a more skill-based and strategic on-court battle, because when there are more rebound opportunities, centers will get more chances to outshine their matchup on the glass, and your whole team has to become more involved in boxing out, and has to weigh the risk/reward of deciding when to crash or leak, when to intentional foul to prevent a putback, whether it's worth equipping badges like breakstarter, worm, box, and rebound chaser on non-center builds, whether it's worth making a small-ball lineup with better shooting vs. a tall-ball lineup with better rebounding, etc.

Then on offense, everybody who touches the rock would have to look at the scoreboard, the gameclock, the shotclock, and their takeover meter to continually weigh the risk/reward of taking a dicey shot like an ultra combo triple crossover logo three versus a more sure shot like a stop & pop free throw line middy instead of how it is in 2K21 where everyone knows that they can just flick up a fading-out-of-bounds 24+ footer at any point in the game and it has equally as good a chance of going in as a catch & shoot set shot from the short corner since once your shooting ratings get into the 90s all your jumpshots, regardless of depth, have roughly the same odds of falling through the net in the post-2K16 shot algorithm.

Shot IQ--specifically, as it relates to the flow and circumstances of an ongoing game--is a skill that has cost many IRL teams their playoff lives (see the Rockets and Celtics in game 7 of their respective 2018 conference finals), but it's a skill that 2K hasn't required of its players since 2K16.

All you have to know since 2K17 is how far back you can green from in the practice gym, and then you just repeat whatever dribble move or screen animation is going to get you an open shot from that furthest possible shooting depth, all game long, with no in-game consequences for pushing your player to his athletic limit on every single shot attempt.

"Take a higher percentage shot" is a criticism that you'll hear all the time from IRL basketball coaches and commentators, but you'll never hear it said on a 2K court as long as VC's design philosophy is to keep making all the different depths of shots equally greenable for players with a 90+ rating, which is what 90% of the ball-dominant players are using in every competitive online mode except current-roster Play Now.

I watched a little bit of the $250,000 tournament, and this describes a good 90% of the possessions I saw. Point Guard would bring the ball down, stand about 3 steps out from the top of the arc then left right left right over and over until he either got a clean look and shot a 30 footer or the shot clock ran out and caused a desperation 30 footer.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

One of the worst design decisions in 2K's history was making 30-foot threes a 90% reliable shot in 2K17 with the introduction of the HOF limitless range badge and the pure sharpshooter archetype (then by 2K19, that reliability percentage would go up to 100%, where it's stayed at for three straight years).

Ever since 2K17, online gameplay has consisted of nothing but zig zagging behind a screen to take a deep three that, even if it's a little bit contested, still has a much better chance of going in than a similarly contested standing layup taken an arm's length away from the rim.

There should be some inherent unreliability in taking 25 to 30 footers that--even with consistently perfect timing--prevents deep threes from being a go-to shot every single trip down the floor.

2K16 was that way, and it's one of the reasons why it was the best and most balanced 2K on the previous generation of consoles. You actually had to know how to score (and defend) at all 3 levels of the court (threes, mids, paint) to win consistently at that game, instead of just knowing how to Curry slide and speedboost glitch back and forth behind a screen into a base 98 logo three like you see in every online possession of 2K21.

I'd even argue that having more missed shots per game actually makes 2K a more skill-based and strategic on-court battle, because when there are more rebound opportunities, centers will get more chances to outshine their matchup on the glass, and your whole team has to become more involved in boxing out, and has to weigh the risk/reward of deciding when to crash or leak, when to intentional foul to prevent a putback, whether it's worth equipping badges like breakstarter, worm, box, and rebound chaser on non-center builds, whether it's worth making a small-ball lineup with better shooting vs. a tall-ball lineup with better rebounding, etc.

Then on offense, everybody who touches the rock needs to keep side-eyeing the scoreboard, the gameclock, the shotclock, and their takeover meter to continually weigh the risk/reward of taking a dicey shot like an ultra combo triple crossover logo three versus a more sure shot like a stop & pop free throw line middy instead of how it is in 2K21 where everyone knows that they can just flick up a fading-out-of-bounds 24+ footer at any point in the game and it has equally as good a chance of going in as a catch & shoot set shot from the short corner since once your shooting ratings get into the 90s all your jumpshots, regardless of depth, have roughly the same odds of falling through the net in the post-2K16 shot algorithm.

Shot IQ--specifically, as it relates to the flow and circumstances of an ongoing game--is a skill that has cost many IRL teams their playoff lives (see the Rockets and Celtics in game 7 of their respective 2018 conference finals), but it's a skill that 2K hasn't required of its players since 2K16.

All you have to know since 2K17 is how far back you can green from in the practice gym, and then you just repeat whatever dribble move or screen animation is going to get you an open shot from that furthest possible shooting depth, all game long, with no in-game consequences for pushing your player to his athletic limit on every single shot attempt.

"Take a higher percentage shot" is a criticism that you'll hear all the time from IRL basketball coaches and commentators, but you'll never hear it said on a 2K court as long as VC's design philosophy is to keep making all the different depths of shots equally greenable for players with a 90+ rating, which is what 90% of the ball-dominant players are using in every competitive online mode except current-roster Play Now.

Real basketball is a game of percentages--maximizing your scoring odds, and minimizing your opponents'; knowing when it's OK to risk a 35% PJ Tucker corner three versus making sure that you get the ball into Giannis' Go-Go-Gadget-Hands! so he can attack the paint for an 80% effective rim run or ends up with a 70% successful free throw.

2K's dumbed down version of basketball (since 2K17) is just a game of hunting for and preventing green threes, where the only percentages the offense ever has to worry about are the nearest defender's contest percentage, if it's one of those rare plays where it happens to get above 30%, because anything under that is E Z GREENZ BAYBEEEEE!.

Very good comment...

Short Answer: Why take any other shot when the easiest shot to get off and put the most points on the board is the deep 3? Plus, it seems that any 3PT attempt after an offensive rebound is an automatic make, and this situation even occurs in PNO pretty regularly no matter who's shooting the ball.

[jyoung]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

Plus, it seems that any 3PT attempt after an offensive rebound is an automatic make, and this situation even occurs in PNO pretty regularly no matter who's shooting the ball.

That's because the rebound chaser badge acts like dimer for big men and will grant a large shot-odds boost to any teammate who shoots off their offensive rebound pass out.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

That's because the rebound chaser badge acts like dimer for big men and will grant a large shot-odds boost to any teammate who shoots off their offensive rebound pass out.

It does? Damn...now that you mentioned it...firing up my game real quick.

EDIT: I vaguely remember reading that before, but none of the current badges say that unless the Putback Boss Badge is glitched.

[jyoung]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

I need to watch some videos on NBA 2K16. I SWEAR that was the game where they introduced the infamous patch late in the year where getting green shots was ridiculously easy. I remember having shooting problems for most of the year, and I'm pretty sure that was the year I was shooting better with CJ Miles than Paul George.

The late-cycle 2K16 patch definitely made it easier to shoot, but the threes in that game still didn't green anywhere near as easily as they do now.

One of the reasons for that is, back then, the defensive stopper badge would negate all of your offensive matchup's badges once you got close enough to the ball.

So in the Pro-Am, MyPark, and MyTeam modes, perimeter players were forced to score without any badge boosts (or cheese takeover mechanics/animations), unless they were able to get absolutely wide open, since every maxed-out MyPlayer except for the PFs and Cs had the defensive stopper badge equipped (I'd also put it on every eligible MyTeam card).

To even get scoring badges like limitless range and catch & shoot to trigger in 2K16, you'd have to create enough separation from your defender so that his defensive stopper badge would be out of activation range.

When you add that badge system (purple HOF badges hadn't been invented yet) to how feisty the defensive animations were + how loose the ball was back then (significantly less ghosting), the biggest skill gap in 2K16 was simply getting an open shot off without turning the orange over.

This is why post scoring was so popular that year: why risk a turnover or a badgeless jumpshot when you can just dump the ball into an inside-scoring build and let him go to work with all of his badges intact (including a postup-passer dimer badge that wouldn't return to the series until 2K21 next gen).

2K16 was to 2K basketball what the 1990s were to the real NBA. You had enough shooting threats on the floor to keep the perimeter defenders honest (and deterred from sagging back too far or leaving to go double team), but by large, it was still a big man-dominated game.

Then 2K17 stupidly did what I already discussed to the shooting, and--fully committing itself to the TV-Y7 audience--decided to let centers' screens knock perimeter defenders onto their *** cheeks every single play, regrettably introducing us to the Chuck E. Cheese era of 2K basketball, a pubescent playpen that has given earshot adults a din of chronic headaches they'll likely never escape, unless 2K's token sales somehow sink low enough for Take-Two's suits to tell their animatronic coders to tone down the robotic dance moves and neon flashing lights, then try taking the company's stage show in a more lifelike direction.

[VictorMG]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

It feels like people in this thread don't necessarily want perfect releases to not be guaranteed, but that they'd also be okay with perfects being more difficult to achieve, even with, say, 99 3PT and all HoF shooting badges.

But here's the thing, though... casual players outnumber us simheads. By a lot. Those casual players are the ones who would much rather see tons of shots going in as opposed to something more realistic.

And unfortunately, as long as that's the case and they continue to outnumber us, those settings that cause such crazy offensive output are here to stay. 2K would be foolish not to at least somewhat cater their games to the largest portion of their fanbase, so try to cut them some slack if you can.

The fact that we can play online with custom sliders is a bit of a silver lining. I think they're balancing things pretty well all things considered. It's not perfect (heh), but there's something for both type of player.

[itrey25]

Re: 2K desperately needs to move away from guaranteed makes/greens

I agree with this sentiment completely and wish there was an option to make "greenies" no longer automatic.

There is no "automatic" makes in basketball since players can blow wide - open layups and dunks.

Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

As a real life basketball player, been hooping for about 10 years +, you know when your gonna brick or make which is considered a green