Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Just so you don't think I'm ignoring your coaching theories:

I seriously hope you also teach your kids how to respond on the offensive end. If they see their man hedge over a screen, to reverse their cut....if they see their defender focusing on the ball, to cut to an open spot on the floor....if their man leaves them, immediately roll to the front of the hoop....yada, yada, yada.

What you're forgetting in your real life comparisons, is that, as real as it seems, this is still a video game. You are limited by controls. Those things I mentioned up above are just a sample of ways to respond to your defensive strategies....but guess what, they aren't available because of the limits in the controls. Like I said in the above, agreeing with the Czar, there is no tough choices you have to make off the ball, because 1) the play system has been bjorked for years, and 2)your opponent had no opportunity to take control over the bot you were calling your "man" while you had your eye on the ball to respond to your defense. Allegedly both of those things are solved in 2K11.

If that's really the case, you can put your defensive strategies to the test. But until then, whether you want to think so or not, and I'm not saying it's intentional, but your sound real world defensive theory is just a way to exploit the differences in control between the offensive and defensive player.

Denying the ball with a user controlled player is a fantastic example of the difference between real life strategy and how it doesn't always apply to videogames because of the control limits. So...you're trying to keep the ball out of a particular player's hands, why not control whoever is guarding him and deny him the pass. Simple reason, and I stated above quite a few times, there's only one user controlled defender on the court, and he's a target. So, if you're sitting denying a player the ball, who do you think your opponent is going to pass it to? Is he going to pass it around to all those other guys the computer is guarding, or is he going to make sure it gets to the one guy you've decided to guard? All your opponent has to do is icon lead pass him to meet the ball, and all of your strategies, that I agree are great in real world basketball, provided the absolute opposite result in videogame basketball.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

LOL! Thats funny you have no response but this one! LOL! to break down the game from a coaches stand point or as a strategist i know is hard for you to comprehend. Are you sure your on the right forums? You belong over on the elite side bro! That game was made specific to you and your kind. I am done with you. Funny because to the same post flip can only say "isn't it cheese to play with teams best defender?" Really? You guys are unbelievable and so close minded to anything or anyone who has a point of view different than yourself.

I answered your post in red inside your quote like I'm doing now as to address each point individually..... reading is fundamental. Now to answer your questions again. Yes you are taking the competitive spirit out of the game by deferring to the cpu to do your guarding for you....Just let that soak in for a min......1....secs........60. Letting the CPU guard for you....Hmmmm.... I love how you say " I like to use the teams best defender" but won't answer if a players just shoots all his shots with Kobe because he is the games best offensive threat.... Would that still be considered Sim? By the way you play defense, and the way justify not guarding the ball you would.

What have you brought to this thread from an actual real basketball perspective outside of a videogame to bring your point alive to what SIM is? SIM IS playing basketball the way you see it on tv or how you would play it in real life. Again, basketball coaches and teams have defensive game plans that you obviously can't comprehend or understand that go's well beyond man to man defense and JUST guarding your man who has the ball! Respond to this and then I will respond back.

I have given you multiple ways to defend the ball, and the plays on this game all while playing on ball defense. Now you want me to tell you again?
Nope, not gonna do it.

Again, I like to play with best defender. I am a basketball coach for a living and run my own AAU club. I know basketball and the in's and out's of the game. My specialty is defense. I teach kids to always deny 1 pass away and be in help when 2 passes away. Alaways see the ball and your man. Always be ready to help! We play defense as a team of 5 not 1 on 1. We play as a tight FIST not 5 individuals! This is very common! Watch Purdue's defense and you will see how I coach defense. The Blazers play an NBA style of this defense as well. So, i ask again what is wrong with me playing with Ron artest off ball if I am playing my man and reacting to wherethe ball is in relation to my man? When my man is 1 pass away I deny, if my man gets the ball I "D" him up, if the ball is rotated 2 passes away I then prepare for help on a drive or pick n roll just like he would or should do in REAL basketball which IS SIM isn't it?!

I'm not going to argue my knowledge base on these forums with you, it's ridiculous.... how about this I'm an astronaut and I work for Nasa, and I'm in space working on defensive game plans to stop the pick and roll in a zero gravity enviroment..... See where I'm going with that?

Now to get back on point... all those things are sim, and would be ok in " Real LIFE" because it's happening in real life. If Kobe took 500 shots in a game it would be sim as well.... But what you are failing to realize is that this is a video game, and sportsmanship, if that's the word to use has to be considered. What you are doing on defense can't be counter acted on offense inately because I can't switch off the ball and yin and yang what you're trying to do to me on defense.... I'm stuck with the man with the ball. Understand where I'm coming from?



Why is that wrong? Is that NOT a strategy used by almost every basketball coach at the lowest of levels to the highest? Yet, we can't play like the real NBA teams, because you say thats not SIM? That is basketball my friend! You are probably that guy who only watches the guy with the ball when watching a game. See thats the difference, I see the whole game and watch all the nuances and all the off ball stuff that go's on during a game. It's amazing, you should try watching from this point of view. I bet you didn't even know that there were 8 other players on the court doing things too even though they didn't have the ball! I know, shocking huh?!

Don't ***-u-me what I do while watching a game, but Like I said earlier arguing points like this is redundant.

P.S. My answers in Red kimosabe.....

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Hmmm....I took the time to reasonably and logically explain this....and no response. It seems as if most people will respond to a "you're a dirty cheeser post" but quit debating when it gets deeper and meaningful.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Hmmm....I took the time to reasonably and logically explain this....and no response. It seems as if most people will respond to a "you're a dirty cheeser post" but quit debating when it gets deeper and meaningful.

As odd as it may sound ... I disagree with most of the last posts of some users and agree with most (thus not all) of yours.

I differ with those posts in that I think, that propper on ball d is mainly done to lessen the flaw of the AI or even lessen the penalty for a bad decission "I took" at some point while playing defense ... it is not ment to gain any advantage but to lessen a disadvantage.


This discrepancy within this posts and my view of sim on ball d just strenghten my believe that there is absolutelly no one way of viewing a gameplay as sim ... thus my agreeing with some of yours post confirms that there is definitivelly some commun ground into what should be sim or not.

Having said that, I think that our beliefs are so integrated in our thoughts, way of playing and hearts that no matter how reasonable, how big the chances of what the other one is saying is right, we wont agree (maybe its our personal experiences within the past decade that are factoring in or maybe its our internal competitive being that does not want to admit defeat while there is still a chance) ... for now, that is ... therefor it is pointless to keep a discussion when it is known that there would be no ultimate agreement ... if this is interpreted as you guys winning the "debate" then so be it, and add it to your proudly online rank "reputation" as it has been stated that it is solely all that matters.

I still believe without a doubt, that playing a propper off ball D is sim, be it vs the CPU or the HUM player. If the devs do make 2k11 as balanced as we can already see in the videos, demo and insights, and if that balance happens to favor onball D (as for once it will truelly give users the propper AI help that it is expected from his CPU teammates) ... then, its a welcomed addition and one that us, the 2k sim players, will embrace even more fervently.

[sportyguyfl31]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

this debate never ends.

As with anything, its not so much a matter of what you do, but how you do it.

Against the CPU, I play a great deal of off ball D.

I like to take the challenge of guarding the best perimeter player, denying him the ball, fighting through screens, etc..

I'll do this online also..Guard Lebron myself all game, and watch the offense wither .

I also enjoy playing on ball all the time also..either or is not too much of an issue.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Hmmm....I took the time to reasonably and logically explain this....and no response. It seems as if most people will respond to a "you're a dirty cheeser post" but quit debating when it gets deeper and meaningful.

LOL! Sorry for delayed response. This thread has been going on for 35 pages and 348 posts and you just came in in the last 5 pages. I'm tired of this argument to be honest with you. You make some good points. Everyone likes to play differently and has a different definition of SIM. Who am I to say your wrong? I like my way and you like your way. When the game comes out, let's play and see if our styles of SIM mesh? I think they just might just for the fact we want the same thing which is a realistic representation of the game.

I think we agree on all but the on ball off ball debate. Let me ask you this though, what do you not like about a person who plays off ball? What do they do that you don't like? Does it force you to do things you don't like? I don't understand what you don't or can't do against the CPU that you can against a man guarding you. Can you not beat or make the CPU look bad? If the player playing off ball is guarding his man and watching you rather than playing zone on the ball side is that bad? Is it just not fun for you playing against guys who play off ball? I'm just curious.

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I think we agree on all but the on ball off ball debate. Let me ask you this though, what do you not like about a person who plays off ball? What do they do that you don't like? Does it force you to do things you don't like? I don't understand what you don't or can't do against the CPU that you can against a man guarding you. Can you not beat or make the CPU look bad? If the player playing off ball is guarding his man and watching you rather than playing zone on the ball side is that bad? Is it just not fun for you playing against guys who play off ball? I'm just curious.

The page long post on the previous page goes into detail about what I don't like about off the ball defense. To sum it up though, smart offense responds to what the defense is doing....however almost all players (sim players included) play defense in an unrealistic gambling way. This means the smart basketball move, the real definition of "sim" is to play in a way that looks like cheese.

A good example here that has nothing to do with on the ball/off the ball is full court press. If your opponent full court presses all game long, and the offensive player is smart, almost every one of his shots will be layups and dunks. At a glance, the guy who scored 100% of his points in the paint is a cheeser....but if you really look at it, HE is the smart player, the sim player, it was his opponent's unrealistic choice to press all game that made the game turn out that way.

The common rebuttal is that off the ball isn't gambling... but by it's very definition it is. The computer is programmed to be in the correct spot to guard CPU controlled offensive player. When a user takes control of that player and moves him (even a little bit) the defense is now out of position and gambling. Most people would claim that the computer is all too often not in the right spot defensively, and doesn't provide good help defense. Ironically, those are the same people who switch to off the ball defenders and move them around on their own....then complain that they were in the wrong spot.

People who play on the ball defense don't have the same complaints, because they allow the CPU to get in the right defensive position, and stay there without being pulled out of position by the user. We don't complain about all the glitches or exploits the offense uses, because they aren't exploits or glitches, they are simply the game's counter to the way the vast majority of people play defense. Also, it's funny when all the people who don't play on the ball state that they CAN'T because their opponent will abuse such and such. Instead they don't guard the ball, and have TONS of complaints about supposed exploits....the same complaints that on the ball defenders don't have. Irony?

This debate should finally be over in 2K11...not because of improved defense, but instead because of Total Control Passing. They have improved defense every year, but nobody seems to notice because they're too busy assuming it's broken after they get burned a couple times....and instead resort to a flawed defense that has yielded a belief that lead passing and baseline drives are exploits (instead if responses to their defense). This year is going to be much worse for those people, and within a week we'll be hearing complaints how the defense is still broken. It's not the game people, and it hasn't been for a few years, it's the way the vast majority of people choose to play.

Imagine this situation: in 2K10, if a guy beat you with a hesitation move and drove baseline 5 times in a row, the majority of players are going to switch off, and let the CPU guard him, never learning to stop the other player. Playing off the ball allowed him to get away from the perceived cheese. Now in 2k11, it's a completely different scenario....that same guy who switched off because his opponent just kept running by him, now has to deal with a user controlled off the ball player. 99% of the off the ball defenders have developed such bad defensive habits by defending non-responsive bots, that there is no way they'll be able to defend a user controlled off the ball player. We are going to see many, many more back door cuts and alley oops. And the same people who wouldn't guard the ball for fear of cheese have nowhere on the court to run.

This is going to be the most balanced game ever, and I'm guessing we'll hear record amounts of complaints...because at this point, the more realistic and balanced this game becomes, the more it's going to be a PIP fest due to the way people play defense.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

With Da C'Zars defensive strategy video, I hope you off the ball D'ers will finally realize how cheesy you really are. Your argument has been thrown out the window, and ran over by a mack truck with color purple Oprah Winfrey Driving it!! What say you now?