Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Propper off ball D is an integral part of sim and should not be prejudiced and catallogued as the contrary just by its sole nature but more by how is done, period.

agree 100%! well put!

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Propper off ball D is an integral part of sim and should not be prejudiced and catallogued as the contrary just by its sole nature but more by how is done, period.

I could agree with you...except:

Using the same logic, "proper off the ball offense is an integral part of a sim game." is equally true. Oh wait....that's not possible in this game. 2k11 they seem to have balanced this out. If the developers didn't perceive this as a problem, why was on ball percentage included in the VIP...and why would they feel the need to add total control passing.

For those of you who haven't been guarding the other player, prepare yourself for thinking everybody is cheesing you. This year you will be forced to guard a user controlled player, so you can't avoid what you've labeled as exploits just by choosing to be responsible for guarding the CPU rather than the other gamer. No matter how much they improve the game, they can't change the way you choose to play. This year with control balanced between the offense and defense....whenever you play out of position or gamble for the steal, the offense has more tools to punish you for poor defense, which is going to lead the vast majority of players to think they are being cheesed. This year there will be no issues with off the ball defense. The only issue will be all the campers complaining this is the cheesiest game ever.

[TheKasmar]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

This Was Originally posted by Flipshouse in 2004 and I'll be ****** if it doesn't still apply
if you ask yourself am I a cheeser the answers are in here



<!-- / message -->

Are Fliphouse and newmoon the same person? I'm confused.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I could agree with you...except:

Using the same logic, "proper off the ball offense is an integral part of a sim game." is equally true. Oh wait....that's not possible in this game. 2k11 they seem to have balanced this out. If the developers didn't perceive this as a problem, why was on ball percentage included in the VIP...and why would they feel the need to add total control passing.

For those of you who haven't been guarding the other player, prepare yourself for thinking everybody is cheesing you. This year you will be forced to guard a user controlled player, so you can't avoid what you've labeled as exploits just by choosing to be responsible for guarding the CPU rather than the other gamer. No matter how much they improve the game, they can't change the way you choose to play. This year with control balanced between the offense and defense....whenever you play out of position or gamble for the steal, the offense has more tools to punish you for poor defense, which is going to lead the vast majority of players to think they are being cheesed. This year there will be no issues with off the ball defense. The only issue will be all the campers complaining this is the cheesiest game ever.

Here we go again ...I can accept that you choose to totally overlook my comments, given that you are having an argue with me ... but how can (for the sake of just not admitting your own mistakes and for the motive of just circunscribe yourselves into some type of Elite group while demenishing others) you conveniently overlook facts within your own observations ? ... its unexplicable, at least not without having doubts on your mental healthness, so I wont try to mock of someone with a discapacity ...

Propper offball D isnt ment to be gambling for steals, it isnt ment for camping on the paint or perimeter, it is ment to give you a more balanced sim D as the game is flawed ... using your own words, its unbalanced ... thus it is interesting that it is conveniently unbalanced to favor your point of view ... at least from your point of view, that is ... with that, I disagree ...

All the changes made to the AI defensive awareness wouldnt be made if the game was so perfect and so flawless as you believe so fervently ... they made them because the game had flaws ... the new old defensive stance, the new double team mechanic, everything in order to give you a more balanced D ... I guess the devs had a different vision than you as they surelly addressed and noticeable improved that aspect.

If the devs do make 2k11 as balanced as we can already see in the videos, demo and insights, and if that balance happens to favor onball D (as for once it will truelly give users the propper AI help that it is expected from his CPU teammates) ... then, its a welcomed addition and one that us, the 2k sim players, will embrace even more fervently than the nonesense you are proclaiming ...

P.D.
... to that who asked ... Flip and New are not the same person but are peopple with the exact same sickness: severe shortsightened, with selective amnesia and a extensive dosis of megalomaniac composture.

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

... as I have previously stated, I have played some on ball users who while doing so all game, are incredible "unsimmers", not cheesers, but abusers and extremists of some plays (defensible: yes, you can counter them and are not exploits ... but definitivelly unsim).

This is where we SERIOUSLY differ. This is where the whole notion of "sim" went wrong in my opinion. If at any point, you leave your matchup (the other player) and let the CPU guard him...who are you to judge how he beats the CPU? The moment you made it him vs the CPU, your opinion on the way he scores is irrelevant.

Here's a quick example: baseline abusers. I would agree driving baseline every time could be perceived as an exploit. Why? Because the offensive simplicity of doing a hesitation move then running baseline compared to the defensive difficulty in stopping this on the ball....it would be easy to judge this as overpowered to newer users (or experienced users who haven't played a lot of on the ball). Its hard to defend and easy to pull off. The moment it stops being YOU defending it though...the moment a player let's the CPU guard the player, the whole idea of it being overpowered is meaningless. The offense is forced to get past the CPU in order to get to the user controlled defender....it would be the wise choice to use the most effective move you know to get past that defender.

Once it isn't YOU vs THEM...the entire notion of a sim game is nothing more than a hypocritical way to complain about the way your opponent plays.

[threes_co]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

^Greatest post of all time

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Example #2....pump fake abusers.

If you're to tell me that a guy dribbled up to the 3pt line and continually pump faked til you jumped....I could understand how you could consider that cheesy. It's harder to play defense with restrain and not bite on a pump fake than it is for the offensive player to sit there and tap their button over and over. It can be awfully tough for a new player (or an experienced player who hasn't played much on the ball) to defend...and extremely frustrating when you mess up.

The moment you tell me that it was the CPU defending the ballhandler...the CPU deciding whether he was shooting or just pumpfaking...letting the computer decide when and if to jump....all complaints about pumpfake abusers either come from inexperienced players or hypocrits.

A blast from the past...example #3...hop step abusers.

For those of you who remember when the general notion was hop-stepping to the basket was perceived as overpowered. Every time somebody hop stepped, all you had to do was take a charge and it was a turnover 75% of the time. People who complained about hopstepping were either new, or letting the CPU guard the other player...because if you were defending the other player yourself, if anything, the defensive counter was overpowered. Most people didn't learn that though, because when they got burned a few times, they resorted to letting the CPU guard the other player....just like 90% of the other things people have deemed overpowered.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

If the devs do make 2k11 as balanced as we can already see in the videos, demo and insights, and if that balance happens to favor onball D (as for once it will truelly give users the propper AI help that it is expected from his CPU teammates) ... then, its a welcomed addition and one that us, the 2k sim players, will embrace even more fervently than the nonesense you are proclaiming ...

This is where we SERIOUSLY differ. This is where the whole notion of "sim" went wrong in my opinion. If at any point, you leave your matchup (the other player) and let the CPU guard him...who are you to judge how he beats the CPU? The moment you made it him vs the CPU, your opinion on the way he scores is irrelevant.

Here's a quick example: baseline abusers. I would agree driving baseline every time could be perceived as an exploit. Why? Because the offensive simplicity of doing a hesitation move then running baseline compared to the defensive difficulty in stopping this on the ball....it would be easy to judge this as overpowered to newer users (or experienced users who haven't played a lot of on the ball). Its hard to defend and easy to pull off. The moment it stops being YOU defending it though...the moment a player let's the CPU guard the player, the whole idea of it being overpowered is meaningless. The offense is forced to get past the CPU in order to get to the user controlled defender....it would be the wise choice to use the most effective move you know to get past that defender.

Once it isn't YOU vs THEM...the entire notion of a sim game is nothing more than a hypocritical way to complain about the way your opponent plays.

Again, conveniently making "assumptions" of parts of my comments to conveniently support yours with it ... but I can pass that ... where we seriously differ its on the whole notion of sim, which you got all wrong ...

Sim is a style of play that you dont turn on or off;
Sim is a style of play were you dont feel handcuffed when you dont do what the defense lets you but by not doing what you were supposed to;
Sim is an uncounsious response that mimics how the game is played in real life, but within the fairness that should be accounted within the realm of videogames.

So if you happen to abuse some plays, moves and even threw away your tendencies and habitts just because of how your opponent is playing ... then you are definitivelly not sim at all and are just doing threads like this to enmascarade your not so sim approach and evade future claims for such despicable tactics.

By your own comment let me conclude, not assume like others do, I say this: all who has inccur in such mistake or purpose deviation, is a CHEESER and should not even attempt to call them selves SIM, or worse, to call others unsim.

P.D:
I take back any offensive and personal comments made to you or the likes of you, they were out of the line ... now I can clearly see that you are just CHEESERS.

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Again, conveniently making "assumptions" of parts of my comments to conveniently support yours with it ... but I can pass that ... where we seriously differ its on the whole notion of sim, which you got all wrong ...

I'm not sure what assumptions I'm making. Is it in stating you are playing risky, or out of position defense? You don't think you are? The computer is programmed to defend other cpu players. If the user doesn't mess that up, by pulling him in a different direction, they actually do a pretty good job of keeping good position. They actually provide pretty good help defense too, but that's another point. What you're doing is taking that player and moving him away from where the computer says he should be in order to defend his CPU matchup. That's out of position defense.....and it might be an assumption, but if you're controlling an off the ball defender and you're not moving him from where the CPU said he should be, what exactly are you doing?

Sim is a style of play that you dont turn on or off;
Sim is a style of play were you dont feel handcuffed when you dont do what the defense lets you but by not doing what you were supposed to;
Sim is an uncounsious response that mimics how the game is played in real life, but within the fairness that should be accounted within the realm of videogames.

Quoted for truth....couldn't agree any more with everything you said there.

So if you happen to abuse some plays, moves and even threw away your tendencies and habitts just because of how your opponent is playing ... then you are definitivelly not sim at all and are just doing threads like this to enmascarade your not so sim approach and evade future claims for such despicable tactics.

You're missing the point....if you're not responding to how the defense is playing, and you're just shooting jumpshots because you think that's what a sim game is....you're competing with a disadvantage. Especially when the defense is playing in such a way that the smart basketball move is to punish them for being out of position. The real problem lies when the defense plays in a way that encourages their opponent to attack it a certain way....but then complains that that isn't "sim". That's pretty much the definition of hypocrisy.

By your own comment let me conclude, not assume like others do, I say this: all who has inccur in such mistake or purpose deviation, is a CHEESER and should not even attempt to call them selves SIM, or worse, to call others unsim.

P.D:
I take back any offensive and personal comments made to you or the likes of you, they were out of the line ... now I can clearly see that you are just CHEESERS.

How about we let the people vote....what's your feedback? Mines taken a major hit over the last 2 years with probably close to 1000 random ranked games....but I can pretty much guarantee people like playing me more than you.

Yep....a guy who plays off the ball, then wants to call other people cheesers....I hope this was a joke, because you pretty much summed up my point for me.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I could agree with you...except:

Using the same logic, "proper off the ball offense is an integral part of a sim game." is equally true. Oh wait....that's not possible in this game. 2k11 they seem to have balanced this out. If the developers didn't perceive this as a problem, why was on ball percentage included in the VIP...and why would they feel the need to add total control passing.

For those of you who haven't been guarding the other player, prepare yourself for thinking everybody is cheesing you. This year you will be forced to guard a user controlled player, so you can't avoid what you've labeled as exploits just by choosing to be responsible for guarding the CPU rather than the other gamer. No matter how much they improve the game, they can't change the way you choose to play. This year with control balanced between the offense and defense....whenever you play out of position or gamble for the steal, the offense has more tools to punish you for poor defense, which is going to lead the vast majority of players to think they are being cheesed. This year there will be no issues with off the ball defense. The only issue will be all the campers complaining this is the cheesiest game ever.

2 excellent points.... you really new what you were getting when you looked at a guys VIP, and the on ball D was low it was a great chance he was a scrub cheeser. I still say unless the offensive player inately cuts to the basket, or goes to the open spot when the off ball defender is doing his thing it will still be a problem

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

If the devs do make 2k11 as balanced as we can already see in the videos, demo and insights, and if that balance happens to favor onball D (as for once it will truelly give users the propper AI help that it is expected from his CPU teammates) ... then, its a welcomed addition and one that us, the 2k sim players, will embrace even more fervently than the nonesense you are proclaiming ...

The balance you're seeing for the most part is vs the CPU. You're not seeing the people play the stupid ways you find online. The exact same balance is present in 2K10, until people start playing like they always do. You're going to see just as many dunks this year as last....because the problem wasn't as much the game as it was the way people played it, and that's not going to change.

Every single year, they have improved this....they have made some tweaks that some people would consider steps backward....but every single year it has gotten better overall. And yet here YOU are, trying to tell somebody who plays on the ball that it is impossible play on the ball. If it involves any type of learning curve, and there is a simpler way to get W's in the short-term....most people online will take that route, to the detriment of actually ever learning or improving their game. They've done it every single year....what honestly makes you think this year will be any different? They can only make defense so easy, and this year, despite all the complaints about the defensive stance and the CPU AI, the incredible recovery speed of the defense made playing on the ball relatively simple. Still nobody learned.

[NDAlum]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Idk I don't play off ball D but I don't consider it cheese unless somebody is camping and going for steal after steal.

It wouldn't bother me one bit if somebody used the center all game and played their man. Some guys just don't have the stick skills to stay with the person guarding the guy with the ball.

I like to have strategy be more important than stick skills personally. So yea, it would be cool if my opponent plays off ball D.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

How about we let the people vote....what's your feedback? Mines taken a major hit over the last 2 years with probably close to 1000 random ranked games....but I can pretty much guarantee people like playing me more than you.

Yep....a guy who plays off the ball, then wants to call other people cheesers....I hope this was a joke, because you pretty much summed up my point for me.

So its now a contest ... humm!? ... I dont accept the propposal, not because I know I may not win but because I dont stick the dagger into a fallen opponent ... my friend, of all challenges, that one could not be more impropper ... it would be like abussing, and I, no cheeser am.

For your info, peopple has already voted ... and if you scrooll throughout the main forum you will find the thread with such inquiry ... and if you also scrooll throughout this very same thread and count, you will find your answers.

Then again, someone who abusses moves and plays not only call others cheesers but calls himself sim ? ... Assuming you were right (something I normally dont do, at least not as others), since when does a rabbit makes fun of a dunkey for having big and long ears ? ... To say that you abuse the lane because others are giving you the lane ... is like saying that because a robber is an outlaw, you, as a cop, should act outside of the law too ... and I thought noone could add more to this nonesense.

And to say that you agree with my sim description and then denied with your next comment, its plain and simple: hypocresy.

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

2 excellent points.... you really new what you were getting when you looked at a guys VIP, and the on ball D was low it was a great chance he was a scrub cheeser. I still say unless the offensive player inately cuts to the basket, or goes to the open spot when the off ball defender is doing his thing it will still be a problem

Yeah...back when the VIP actually meant anything.

First they never quite finished it, it was riddled with bugs from the start.

Then they completely ignore what was a fantastic improvement on the game....and make it so hard to access that it's forgotten about by everyone.

Now after years of neglect, it is so chock filled with bugs it's a joke. The other day I looked at my stats, and the one thing I thought I could trust to be was reliable was the recent shot chart. I looked at mine and it had like 4 shots on it....and after looking at it for a bit I realized it had saved from an offline practice game I had against the computer. I had turned off the shot clock and changed some other settings just so I could practice running through the playbook. And there it was on my VIP as my most recent game. I checked back about a week later, and that same shot chart was there despite many many other games being played.

Most of my records are from offline games in My Player. My top 3 teams make zero sense....I have the Lakers Cavs and Nuggets....all of which I barely touch (Nuggets might make sense because that's where MY PLAYER got drafted, so maybe I played quite a few with them in that mode?)....my on the ball percentage is at a shameful 85% according to my VIP, but I can't think of a single way I could guard the ballhandler more unless I pressed the entire game. EVERYTHING in the VIP is screwed up these days. The only meaningful information on it is feedback, feedback history, and DNF% anymore.

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

So its now a contest ... humm!? ... I dont accept the propposal, not because I know I may not win but because I dont stick the dagger into a fallen opponent ... my friend, of all challenges, that one could not be more impropper ... it would be like abussing, and I, no cheeser am.

For your info, peopple has already voted ... and if you scrooll throughout the main forum you will find the thread with such inquiry ... and if you also scrooll throughout this very same thread and count, you will find your answers.

Then again, someone who abusses moves and plays not only call others cheesers but calls himself sim ? ... Assuming you were right (something I normally dont do, at least not as others), since when does a rabbit makes fun of a dunkey for having big and long ears ? ... To say that you abuse the lane because others are giving you the lane ... is like saying that because a robber is an outlaw, you, as a cop, should act outside of the law too ... and I thought noone could add more to this nonesense.

And to say that you agree with my sim description and then denied with your next comment, its plain and simple: hypocresy.

You missed my point. I didn't challenge you to a game. People rate your gameplay after every game....it's called feedback. What's your feedback....how do people rate your game, because I can just about guarantee it isn't as highly rated as mine.

The other point is this....I don't call people cheesers. I don't care how you play. My problem is with people who expect the offense to play by certain "sim" standards, but then play defense in a way that encourages their opponent to "cheese".

Oh, and yes, I did completely agree with your sim description....but off the ball defense actually runs counter to a lot of your "pillars" of sim. Unless you meant all that only applies to offense?