Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

To be ready for help. See the ball and see my man "having my pistols out". It;s not about taking advantage. Maybe it's me taking away Jordan or Kobe and making you beat me with your role players. Maybe it's not giving up easy lay in's. I know your response is well stop the ball yourself. I play both ways and switch as the game go's on,. I don't just play 100% on ball or off ball. The point is it's still SIM as long as you are playing the game as a coach or strategist to take something away and make the offense think and beat you 5 on 5 not 1 on 1 or 2 on 2. I understand the people you are referring to but we are not those people. Playing JUST on ball D means i might as well play nba jam or elite or take it to the streets for 1 on 1. I want to play basketball and all that comes with it and strategy is a BIG part of that. The in game strategies don't cut it.

You're trying to break down what the cpu does on defense as completely helpless, and I'm not buying it. The game gives you options IE: Pressure, double, zones, man to man, fullcourt, half court...and what ever else you can do all while playing On ball. There are no plays on this game that can not be defended while playing on ball.....
Now you want to say I might as well be playing NBA JAM, huk, huk, huk..... give me a break!

I like to play with my best team defender period. Whether thats Rodman, Hakeem, Jordan, raja bell, artest or whoever thats who I want to play with. Quick ex. If I am guarding the ball and the player is better than me and killing me 1 on 1 do you suggest I keep playing like that? It was so easy to burn people very easily any time you wanted in past years so really it depends on the game, but again in real life a coach might sub someone else in or change his strategy. Maybe he brings help to take that offensive player out of the game? So many things come into play here. If the offensive player passes the ball 20times then I got to switch every time he passes to guard the ball? Thats just stupid! I'd rather rotate my defender, take 1 pass away when necessary by denying my player the ball and be ready to help on drives. How can you say that isn't SIM! I'm playing my man and the ball?!

What's telling in your answers is I want to play with the teams best defender.... Cheesers want to play with their teams best Offensive player....see where I'm going with that? you're cooking up defenses to stop a full blown cheeser knock yourself out. But remember i'm only talking about a "SIM" game. You're saying that you're playing the man, and the ball, I say you're playing the Cpu. you want the cpu to guard the ball, and if just ir an opening is made you want to already be in position to deny.... except in a "SIM" game it's the other way around. If I drive past you, the cpu isn't going to just let me Slam dunk, they are going to rotate to help..... So what are you doing off ball that the computer isn't do anyway?





NO it doesn't! Maybe this year, but not in years past, but that isn't why I play some off ball anyways... see above...



Again, I like to play with best defender. I am a basketball coach for a living and run my own AAU club. I know basketball and the in's and out's of the game. My specialty is defense. I teach kids to always deny 1 pass away and be in help when 2 passes away. Alaways see the ball and your man. Always be ready to help! We play defense as a team of 5 not 1 on 1. We play as a tight FIST not 5 individuals! This is very common! Watch Purdue's defense and you will see how I coach defense. The Blazers play an NBA style of this defense as well. So, i ask again what is wrong with me playing with Ron artest off ball if I am playing my man and reacting to wherethe ball is in relation to my man? When my man is 1 pass away I deny, if my man gets the ball I "D" him up, if the ball is rotated 2 passes away I then prepare for help on a drive or pick n roll just like he would or should do in REAL basketball which IS SIM isn't it?!

"If my man gets the ball I "D" him up" lol wow now that sentence is telling.... lol what are you doing if your guy never gets the ball....Hmmm I wonder.....



It's making you make a decision. It's strategy is all. Again, I play both and never 100% either way but I don't find off ball unsim but more very SIM! I welcome the challenge and the inner chess match within the game! That to me is the best part of a league full of 30 guys. You have 30 guys with 30 different styles to find out who is the best! If you play to your rule of guard ball all you have are 30 clones of yourself which is dumb and not even realistic to the real NBA with different coaches and strategies that they have on a night to night basis. If every team played the smae then why would they practice and have pre game meetings and watch film on upcoming teams?

I don't think you even know what On ball defense means.... you can still do everything you want to do to stop a person from scoring by playing on ball....nuff said.

Also, you can reverse your last statements as well. You can say well why don't you adjust? why can't you not play against a guy who makes you have to think and react to what he does when not guarding the ball? If it was me, i might run some pick n pops or run some specific plays to get my player a open to get a shot off outside and away from your player. To me it just sounds like you want to play 1 on 1 and have a wide open lane to dunk all day. Is that SIM? I say NOOOO!!!

GOOD God!!!! no wonder.... this is how you summarize what an on ball defender wants lol

[pabryant]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I just wanted to add real fast,... a LOT of TRUE sim players; they don't play online. I know I don't. It's too hard to find a real game of basketball. The CPU is going to simulate real basketball to the best of its ability. Then I am able to adjust the sliders to make up for the CPU's shortcomings.

Then when I do decide to play online, its always some cheeser, or some quitter, or no one will play me because there is no online history on me in the lobby. Its sad, really sad. I was so excited when I finally got high speed internet back in the day. Now, I hardly if ever play online unless its my best friends, my son, or brother. All people I know that are students of the game.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

This lack of comprehension is a failure of public schools I think.... lets break down your post...... you haven't given me one scenario that can't be guarded on ball, you can shade, Double, play passing lanes, Sag off to help on quick posts.... you name it all while playing ON-Ball... however you disregard all those and say I don't want to.... but you'd rather guard an AI controlled bot....Hmmmm.

I also love how you say well I occasionally play Off ball....Occasionally lol I'd love to know the occasion you play on ball, and why you find the need to do it at all.... give me a break.

I do love how you brought in Da C'zar as some sort of saying to hitch your cheese defense to. There is one telling thing in all his videos.... yep you guessed it, he's playing On ball Defense.... In fact in order to play in OS leagues....you have to , you guessed it play on ball defense.... Hmmmmm... I wonder why that is....

I'll tell you the difference between me and FLips.... i'm more black and white...as for as you put it 80, 90% on OS thinks Off ball is ok.... this is what I say if you ain't 100% Sim , you're all CHeese in my book

read response above to flip... answers all your accusations against saying I'm cheese and deflecting your cheese to me... Were on to you moony!

please don't try to Gloss over the issue... Please explain the enboldened font...thanks

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I just wanted to add real fast,... a LOT of TRUE sim players; they don't play online. I know I don't. It's too hard to find a real game of basketball. The CPU is going to simulate real basketball to the best of its ability. Then I am able to adjust the sliders to make up for the CPU's shortcomings.

Then when I do decide to play online, its always some cheeser, or some quitter, or no one will play me because there is no online history on me in the lobby. Its sad, really sad. I was so excited when I finally got high speed internet back in the day. Now, I hardly if ever play online unless its my best friends, my son, or brother. All people I know that are students of the game.

Join a sim league, with there base tenant taken from the Sim Bible, and you will never look back. Have you read the Sim bible?

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

GOOD God!!!! no wonder.... this is how you summarize what an on ball defender wants lol

LOL! Thats funny you have no response but this one! LOL! to break down the game from a coaches stand point or as a strategist i know is hard for you to comprehend. Are you sure your on the right forums? You belong over on the elite side bro! That game was made specific to you and your kind. I am done with you. Funny because to the same post flip can only say "isn't it cheese to play with teams best defender?" Really? You guys are unbelievable and so close minded to anything or anyone who has a point of view different than yourself.

What have you brought to this thread from an actual real basketball perspective outside of a videogame to bring your point alive to what SIM is? SIM IS playing basketball the way you see it on tv or how you would play it in real life. Again, basketball coaches and teams have defensive game plans that you obviously can't comprehend or understand that go's well beyond man to man defense and JUST guarding your man who has the ball! Respond to this and then I will respond back.

Again, I like to play with best defender. I am a basketball coach for a living and run my own AAU club. I know basketball and the in's and out's of the game. My specialty is defense. I teach kids to always deny 1 pass away and be in help when 2 passes away. Alaways see the ball and your man. Always be ready to help! We play defense as a team of 5 not 1 on 1. We play as a tight FIST not 5 individuals! This is very common! Watch Purdue's defense and you will see how I coach defense. The Blazers play an NBA style of this defense as well. So, i ask again what is wrong with me playing with Ron artest off ball if I am playing my man and reacting to wherethe ball is in relation to my man? When my man is 1 pass away I deny, if my man gets the ball I "D" him up, if the ball is rotated 2 passes away I then prepare for help on a drive or pick n roll just like he would or should do in REAL basketball which IS SIM isn't it?!

Why is that wrong? Is that NOT a strategy used by almost every basketball coach at the lowest of levels to the highest? Yet, we can't play like the real NBA teams, because you say thats not SIM? That is basketball my friend! You are probably that guy who only watches the guy with the ball when watching a game. See thats the difference, I see the whole game and watch all the nuances and all the off ball stuff that go's on during a game. It's amazing, you should try watching from this point of view. I bet you didn't even know that there were 8 other players on the court doing things too even though they didn't have the ball! I know, shocking huh?!

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

New moon, You are the minority chief... I hate to break it to you but the people of OS have spoken! So again I repeat what the polls have already stated and nothing more needs to be said or debated.

That means 88% of people here and you being the other 12% see off ball defense as OK! All the 3rd option says is that there is definitely a fine line to off ball D. I think us SIM playerswho play off ball D some of the time agree that there are off ball defenders who don't play SIM. Those guys run around like chickens with there head cut off and have no intention of guarding there man but just the ball. That is not SIM and i agree with you on that! I on the other hand and I believe most SIM off ball defenders do play there man and the ball and only help when needed and don't use it as an exploit but rather a strategy to keep you thinking. This is the majority of people here on OS who agree with this. So, no that didn't mean we think "we can do anything on defense" as you stated or as far as the 3rd answer go's, this means we say off ball D can be SIM a if played properly, but unfortunately not all people do. Of course you of all people decide to twist that poll around to your view and to say that 88% of OS doesn't have a clue of to what SIM is?! C'mon man! Maybe it's you who doesn't have a clue and 88% of OS doesn't understand your rules in regards to this on ball defense rule.

Agree to disagree? To each his own man!

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Join a sim league, with there base tenant taken from the Sim Bible, and you will never look back. Have you read the Sim bible?

LOL! Yeah, join his league where you have 30 clones who play the same way so no game is different than another. Everyone plays exactly the same. Sounds like fun? NO THANKS! I choose a league with 30 different minded people who all play different. Kind of like the real NBA where you get 30 different coaches and styles you have to prepare for every night. I want a league where you need to think on the fly, make adjustments, and have a chess match with my opponent. Thats a SIM league. Not 30 clones playing the same way! Even the CPU offline has more team tendancies than what you would get in a league like what the moon offers! Sorry, but I will choose a SIM league over yours bro!

[pabryant]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

LOL! @newmoon. No I haven't read the SimBible but I will have before the day ends.
I'll look into the leagues. My big question is MyCrew games. Is there a Sim League for MyCrew games? My son, my brother, and I were thinking about putting a crew together.

[drewbs]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

We've already been through this..... what's annoying is you not even attempting to comprehend what has been written...by me, or anyone else for that matter. Let me help you out. That Poll had 3 options, yep 3. One of the options were is playing off ball D Cheese; 50% said no. The last Option was is playing off ball d cheese depending on how you play it and 38% said no. Now that poll is most enlightening because it shows that even here on OS that the major majority think you can do anything on defense and still be considered Sim. IE: running around off ball trying for steals, camping the lane, playing Run away Defense.... and all the other cheese moves that you can do defensively....

So as you see they aren't my words.... they are the members here at OS.

P.S. Please think before you write, or just re-read what you wrote and try to comprehend what you are writing to before you hit submit....K..... thanks

So basically... you are implying that "sim" does not describe a certain style of play. It describes a set of rules defined by one person? I've been playing NBA 2k games since 2000. Did "sim" not exist before this so called "bible" was written? I don't think YOU comprehend what YOU are saying. You have not exposed OS for being a bunch of "cheesers" like you think you have. You have only shown that OS that the users of OS are "cheesers" based on YOUR criteria, or the criteria of another person.

I love the backtracking. Earlier in this thread anytime someone posted a reasonable scenario for one to play defense off the ball, you spewed a bunch of BS like "you are only trying to legitimize playing your CHEESE DEFENSE, keep eating VELVEETA!!!!"

You said that Flip House wrote this "sim bible"?

.First off, do I think off the ball defense is cheese and off the ball players are cheesers? I'll say it again...nope. Are they sim...definitely not. And if they want to hold the offense to some sim standard while they let the CPU guard the only human controlled player on the court....they are short-sighted in doing so.

Do I think most of OS is cheesers? Nope....but do I feel the general idea of sim/cheese has been perverted by people who view winning a game over learning the game. And regardless wherever you go, OS included...an internet forum is far from being anything you gleam can meaningful information from. The only reason you would ever choose to not defend your matchup is because you feel you get some advantage from it...or because you want to hide your disadvantage of not being a good defender. So...which is it? What advantage do you gain, or are you simply not good at staying in front of your opponent?

Flip House here said that he doesn't consider playing off the ball defense to be cheese.

Speaking of which...

There is a lot of off-the-ball D that is part of taking away advantages from the offense. That's the entire point of defense. I don't always like the positioning of the CPU defenders so sometimes, I will play off the ball to change that to my liking. It's not about running around cheating for steals or being "wanting to hide my disadvantage of not being a good defender" (LOL yes, because sitting on my *** twiddling my thumbs is difficult) You can only control one person at one time. The CPU has to assume what you want to do. There are much deeper aspects to defense than what the game affords you.

I don't hold the offense to any sort of off the ball standard. Here is my rationale. If the offensive player runs a play and I don't like the way the AI defenders are defending it, I will go guard the main option on that play myself the next time the person runs it. That option might be off the ball, or he could be on the ball. If I am doing this enough times that the offensive player now wants to take advantage of having the CPU guarding the ball handler, then he can, and I will switch back to guarding the ball handler myself. I really don't see what is unrealistic about this.

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Not much time to respond here....but just a quick question:

If your strategy on defense is to just pick your best rated defender, how is that any different than a guy shooting every shot with his best player rated player.

Absolutely no difference....other than you'd be quick to call the guy who shot everytime with Kobe a cheeser.

You've seemed to ignore this question.

I'm curious why it's generally accepted that if somebody shoots every with Kobe, they're considered a cheeser.

But you're defending playing as only (or primarily) as your top rated defender, and calling it a smart basketball strategy.

What is the difference? Other than you consider sim just a style of play for the offense, apparently.

[drewbs]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

You've seemed to ignore this question.

I'm curious why it's generally accepted that if somebody shoots every with Kobe, they're considered a cheeser.

But you're defending playing as only (or primarily) as your top rated defender, and calling it a smart basketball strategy.

What is the difference? Other than you consider sim just a style of play for the offense, apparently.

Why would that be cheesing?

Let's consider the NBA for a moment. Kobe has taken the majority of his team's shots multiple times when the defense lets Kobe get his. So yes... if the defense is giving Kobe the opening to take as many shots as he wants, then why shouldn't he if he is the team's best chance to score? It's how the Lakers run their offense in real life? It's taking what the defense gives you. Kobe routinely takes 30+ shots in a game in real life.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

You've seemed to ignore this question.

I'm curious why it's generally accepted that if somebody shoots every with Kobe, they're considered a cheeser.

But you're defending playing as only (or primarily) as your top rated defender, and calling it a smart basketball strategy.

What is the difference? Other than you consider sim just a style of play for the offense, apparently.

You ignored all my points and seem to skip over all the posts where you have no rebuttle to a point made to prove why off ball D is ok and still SIM. Both you and new moon pick 1 sentence you can turn around off of a 2-3 paragraph post that twists the real meaning of what I am saying around. Yet you don't respond to the real debate about what is the similarities between REAL basketball defensive strategies and the SIM basketball that you claim is SIM. Now you want to turn the off ball D debate to if you play with 1 key defender that is unsim as well? WTF? Let this be known, I play with everyone, i play on ball and off ball. I play with the best defender I believe to be more than 50% of the time, but really I will give multiple looks with any and all players depending on what the offense is doing. My arguement is I don't care what my opponent is doing because you can counter it. So maybe my star only has 10 points a game but he has 15 assists and 9 boards. I can live with a 10pt, 15 assist, 9 rebound game from Kobe. Can you? I could care less how someone plays defense except for those full court pressing all game and trapping all game. You don't see it in the NBA so i don't want to see it in a videogame either unless it's late and your down.

The funny thing is everyone has been asking for 2k and the devs to fix the defense. That was the number 1 thing the community wanted. Defense wins championships. The reason for this was there were exploits and advantages that the offense had over the defense. So, why would you want to handicap the defense? If someone wants to use the best defensive player all game long then so be it. Why not attack me with your best player? I'm not switching if you come my way! Are you saying playing with 1 guy and best defender is unsim now too?

Let me ask you this, what do you not like about a person who plays off ball? What do they do that you don't like? Does it force you to do things you don't like? I don't understand what you don't or can't do against the CPU that you can against a man guarding you. Can you not beat or make the CPU look bad? If the player playing off ball is guarding his man and watching you rather than playing zone on the ball side is that bad?

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

WTF....first ffaacc, now Vanwolfhawk???

I checked your record just to see what kind of player I was debating with....and AGAIN, another player who hasn't played any games. This guy has yet to play a ranked game, a complete total of 7 feedback votes, and yet you want to tell me how and what sim play is???

No offense, I'm sure you guys are good, but you have ZERO idea of how this game works in a truly competitive setting. You see an entirely different game online than you guys know. I am just so very curious why you would fight so ferociously over something you care so little about though? And if you do care, why don't you play?

One of the other posters made a comment that not all sim players play online....and he's 100% right. But playing sim in a highly competitive head to head game is an ENTIRELY different thing than playing sim against the computer, or even against your buddy on the couch. The original post about Sim Play was done before they added the current feedback system, it was set up that after each match you had to vote your opponent Sim or Unsim (I think that was it???)....and it was written to define how I voted on each of my opponent's. So at it's core, this whole discussion is about "online sim"....we probably would've gotten along a lot better if that was more clear in the beginning.

My goal has always been to try and prove that playing completely sim can be competitive online regardless of what type of player you're going against...and you can. For your question about whether I would be happy with your stat line from Kobe, you clearly have no idea how I play, I sent you a friend request....accept it if you want and we can get a game in.

And just to let you know....and as I've said before, I have ZERO problem with people who play off the ball....I have a problem with people who want to judge their opponent's offense on some sim standard without applying that same standard to their defense. Again, this is a problem that you really don't understand unless you play competitively.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I checked your record just to see what kind of player I was debating with....and AGAIN, another player who hasn't played any games. This guy has yet to play a ranked game, a complete total of 7 feedback votes, and yet you want to tell me how and what sim play is???

No offense, I'm sure you guys are good, but you have ZERO idea of how this game works in a truly competitive setting. You see an entirely different game online than you guys know. I am just so very curious why you would fight so verociously over something you care so little about though? And if you do care, why don't you play?

One of the other posters made a comment that not all sim players play online....and he's 100% right. But playing sim in a highly competitive head to head game is an ENTIRELY different thing than playing sim against the computer, or even against your buddy on the couch. The original post about Sim Play was done before they added the current feedback system, it was set up that after each match you had to vote your opponent Sim or Unsim (I think that was it???)....and it was written to define how I voted on each of my opponent's. So at it's core, this whole discussion is about "online sim"....we probably would've gotten along a lot better if that was more clear in the beginning.

My goal has always been to try and prove that playing completely sim can be competitive online regardless of what type of player you're going against...and you can. For your question about whether I would be happy with your stat line from Kobe, you clearly have no idea how I play, I sent you a friend request....accept it if you want and we can get a game in.

I played a few games last year online to serious lag and cheesers which I can't stand. I only played last year against my brother which i know what kind of game I am getting. I have run SIM madden leagues for the last 3 years minus this year because i thought the game sucks but thats a whole other story. I am hoping the servers are better this year so I can play online. When i did try and get a game last year I got disconnected and it took forever to get online. Again, those were reasons I didn't and don't play alot online. Whenever I did though I got guys using turbo, shooting EVERY time with Kobe, FC pressing, and trapping as well as doubling and chasing ball around swiping like I stole something from him. So, I havn't had the best experiences online.

Regardless of how many games I have played online or not is not the issue. It's about off ball D. When I play my brother which lives across the country from me we know what game we are getting. He uses both off ball and on ball like myself. We both run plays and it's like watching a game on tnt. This is how basketball and the definition of SIM is to me. I will look for your friend request and we can definitely play when 2k11 comes out! I have a feeling you will see that our style of SIM is and makes for a fun experience and when played right isn't that bad and SIM.

I do want answers on my last paragraph though on why you hate and think that off ball D is unsim?

And just to let you know....and as I've said before, I have ZERO problem with people who play off the ball....I have a problem with people who want to judge their opponent's offense on some sim standard without applying that same standard to their defense. Again, this is a problem that you really don't understand unless you play competitively.

To the first in red... WHAT? Then what are we arguing about then? I don't judge anyone's offense. All I ask is the ball gets spread around, people run some plays, don't take advantage of glitches/flaws, realistic PIP statistics, mix it up inside and out, and no throwing the ball 3/4 court all the time. Other than that bring it! Unfortunately everytime i play someone outside of my friends I run into that. Defensively I just don't want FC press or guys trying to steal and trap all game. Anything else is really fine with me. And just because I didn't play online last year doesn't mean I havn't played online competitively. These So called SIM rules are from 6 years ago!

Again, this just sounds kind of like a cop out to the above points in previous posts. Still yet to get a real response to those unless you don't have a good rebuttle to them and can admit to it???

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Before I start, one good point you did make that I dismissed was the poll. To be honest, I am absolutely amazed by the poll, and is why I think I'll be spending my time here a little more than 2K forums. I can't believe that few would vote it's not cheese, or for that matter how many would vote that it is outright cheese. Shockingly good.

You ever heard "D's get diploma's"? There is a standard, or a line, that has to be set to meet the majority's viewpoint...right? So you can barely skate by and still be OK. I don't want to be a D grade sim player. That's definitely not what sim is about. It's definitely not the majority, you know that. If we all went with the majority opinion....wow, I couldn't even imagine what would be deemed OK. Try to rise above the common standard. I know I wouldn't want to be playing in a way that over half the people even thought might be cheesy.

I played a few games last year online to serious lag and cheesers which I can't stand. I only played last year against my brother which i know what kind of game I am getting. I have run SIM madden leagues for the last 3 years minus this year because i thought the game sucks but thats a whole other story. I am hoping the servers are better this year so I can play online. When i did try and get a game last year I got disconnected and it took forever to get online. Again, those were reasons I didn't and don't play alot online. Whenever I did though I got guys using turbo, shooting EVERY time with Kobe, FC pressing, and trapping as well as doubling and chasing ball around swiping like I stole something from him. So, I havn't had the best experiences online.

I completely understand you....those are the same people I've been playing for hundreds of games...for nearly the last 10 years, sad. But through all the BS, I've maintained you can deal with it and win sim. And you learn ALL the different things that are considered exploits, and you learn how to counter them or stop them after a bit.

Thing is though, they're not ALL like that....you've got to be careful not to be jaded. Most of them do respect a good game, that's why I'm proud of my feedback.

Regardless of how many games I have played online or not is not the issue. It's about off ball D. When I play my brother which lives across the country from me we know what game we are getting. He uses both off ball and on ball like myself. We both run plays and it's like watching a game on tnt. This is how basketball and the definition of SIM is to me. I will look for your friend request and we can definitely play when 2k11 comes out! I have a feeling you will see that our style of SIM is and makes for a fun experience and when played right isn't that bad and SIM.

You and I want the exact same thing in the game, I have no doubt your games are sim...now try and imagine how you would possibly get that same type of game out of the people online who will do anything to win. I have been thinking about this and debating it...for a decade. When you and your brother play, you have a mutual understanding of what kind of game you both want....and voila, it works out. Without that mutual understanding, the very first thing that breaks the competitive balance that would naturally create the type of game that you and I want is off the ball defense.

I do want answers on my last paragraph though on why you hate and think that off ball D is unsim?

To the first in red... WHAT? Then what are we arguing about then? I don't judge anyone's offense. All I ask is the ball gets spread around, people run some plays, don't take advantage of glitches/flaws, realistic PIP statistics, mix it up inside and out, and no throwing the ball 3/4 court all the time. Other than that bring it! Unfortunately everytime i play someone outside of my friends I run into that. Defensively I just don't want FC press or guys trying to steal and trap all game. Anything else is really fine with me. And just because I didn't play online last year doesn't mean I havn't played online competitively. These So called SIM rules are from 6 years ago!

Again, this just sounds kind of like a cop out to the above points in previous posts. Still yet to get a real response to those unless you don't have a good rebuttle to them and can admit to it???

See, but you are asking for something....actually quite a bit. You've got a long laundry list of things you want out of your opponent. In a game with your brother where you both want the same things, that works out fine...but in a competitive game against a random unknown, there has to be a reason for your opponent to play as you're describing.

You want your opponent to run a play, but why? I'm kind of being facetious, I run plays all the time, but if you sit and think about the game as a balanced competitive game, why should they run plays? You do it because the defense is stout, and you need to CREATE an advantage. The way the vast majority of people play defense, they have already given you as big of an advantage as any play would ever give you. So in asking for somebody to run plays, your defense has to hold up it's part and give the offense a reason to HAVE to run plays.

All the reasons I've heard not to play on the ball, are the exact reasons you should want to play on the ball. "If you play on the ball, your opponent will abuse you with XXX or YYY play." Heard that a few times. As you described, don't you WANT your opponent to try and run plays? The way you describe defending plays makes me think otherwise. It's like the last thing people ever want is to see a guy come off a curl....I'm begging for somebody to beat me like that, it just doesn't happen, because they aren't effective like that. Off the ball defense makes it even worse because moving a guy away from where the CPU thinks he should be setting a pick instantly breaks plays, making it impossible to even run them.

The clips from the Czar showing the plays were very interesting....the biggest thing I gained from them is "make your opponent make tough choices". As you saw, there were no tough choices to be made in 2K10 off the ball....the only tough choices were deciding if your opponent was going to shoot or pumpfake, or which way he was going to drive. In order to defend a play off the ball, you are in reality, overplaying a play....it would be nice if the offense had the same ability to react to how you are defending, but that responsiblity (up until this year) was in the hands of the CPU. I've got a lot of hope in Total Control Passing balancing the controls between offense and defense. Allowing offense the same ability to control any of the 5 players, not just the ballhandler is going to make the whole arguement over off the ball defense outdated. However, judging by the way most people play defense, it is going to actually increase people's PIP over previous years.

You want your opponent to have realistic PIP? Again, that's asking quite a bit in a straight competitive game where somebody wants to win badly. And this is the one that gets the whole community in trouble. Points in the paint has been the benchmark for sim games since the beginning pretty much. Everybody is so concerned about PIP, that in order to stop it, most people play in a way that actually creates it.

I understand the thinking of people when they feel they have to "lock down the paint" and control a guy patroling the lane....especially when their opponent has proven that's all he wants to do. It's even smart basketball. But, not in a competitive videogame that has control limits. You only control one player at a time, and that's the player the offense is going to go after, so when you sit and wait in the paint, that's a practical guarantee that they will go after you. The thing is, that's smart basketball in a sense as well. The one guy that is standing not exactly where the computer thinks it should to properly guard the other computer player....that's you, wherever you are, so if you stand in the paint, expect the attack to come from the paint.

Which vice versa means there won't be that many jumpshots....but again, that was the defensive player's fault. He was not accepting responsibility for guarding jumpshots, so his opponent could not shoot and feel rewarded by beating his opponent (the other player, not the cpu). I understand and use the exceptions to these, "when somebody is camping, you can just shoot jumpshots on them"....I know that logic, but in a straight up competitive game, you have to expect your opponent will go with the higher percentage move. One part that never goes mentioned is a missed jumpshot is a valuable shot...IF it sets up the next move, forcing the defense to respect the player from range, opening up passing or driving lanes. But if your opponent is leaving the responsibility of defending the perimeter player to the CPU, rather than himself, the mental reason for taking a jumpshot is diminished.

In order to lock down the paint, most of these people have encouraged paint abuse. It's a horrible cycle. And it's made much worse by the fact that it's easier to learn offense than it is to learn defense. When people start out, they get burned a lot...because offense is easier to learn than defense. So, rather than go through the entire learning curve, people get better results immediately by switching off and backing up the CPU. This is how so many things get labeled as glitches or exploits....they're really just overpowered, and easier to pull off than they are to defend, not IMPOSSIBLE to defend. People just never learn because they stop trying. I'm not sure who asked it, but said something about if he just kept getting burned if he should just keep playing defense. The answer is HECK YES. Change your matchups, make substitutions, adjust your sliders, change your pressure, but DO NOT think you can't stop that guy, and switch away....otherwise, you will NEVER learn to stop that guy.

The hardline thinking of PIP is what will make sim ineffective in competitive games, no matter how balanced they make the game. Even when the defense is gambling, and gets beat....all game long, the smart basketball move is to destroy them for those gambles, but the sim mentality that PIP is some rule that we can't cross will FOREVER hold back sim games. The fact you don't want your opponent to full court press won't stop him....but the fact that you don't want to punish him properly for doing so all game long will make sim not effective competitively. That's one of a hundred different examples, full court press isn't the only culprit. Until we accept that sim means smart basketball, and PIP are only relevant to the defense (and I'm not sure I can do that) sim is handcuffed.

And finally, you want your opponent to spread the ball around. Somebody said something about if the offense was passing the ball around, if he should just keep switching defenders. The answer is HECK YES. Like I said, in a competitive videogame, the one guy you control is the target. You have to accept that and be willing to stop WHOEVER he passes it to, otherwise, by choosing who you control, you have dictated the ONLY matchup they can go to and get player vs player. Why is player vs player important?...because otherwise, the defensive player's skill is irrelevant AND he has the advantage of having player controlled backup. In order for a sim game to work competitively, you have to know that wherever you go, whoever you pass it to, that person will be defended by the other player. So if you expect the offense to mix it up, you as the defense have to accept the responsibility to defend him. Mixing it up against the computer is both pointless and not fun, and definitely not the reason people play online.

You can say that you do do all the things above: you do make the decisions on whether to bite on a pump fake or not, you do body up and stop your man from driving.....but if you don't say you'll do that wherever he passes the ball, you've predetermined where he is going. Your opponent isn't going to mix it up if the defense is choosing the only matchup the player will guard.