Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

NO, it doesn't. And apparently you can't count either. A player can only control one player on defense as well. Do you use off the ball controls? Is that cheesing as well? You know, controlling the player off the ball to fight for post position, or controlling a player off the ball to come off a screen. How is that fair but controlling a player off the ball on defense is not?

You can control your defenders as well IE: Pressure, double teaming, zones, Man, press, lag off of the defender?

Say you are running a play for Kobe to come off a screen and the CPU defender gets caught on the screen. Then you give Kobe the ball and suddenly, you are playing 1 on 0 because the defender is cannot recover quick enough even if you switch to control the guy who is being screened. Is that considered a "fair" advantage for offense over defense?

My Man that's called BASKETBALL

The most common defensive tactic against high scoring offensive threats is ball denial. If the CPU is not effectively fighting through screens, is it unfair for me to control the off the ball defender who is checking Kobe so that I can cover him better and keep him off his hot-spots? Is that unfair? Is it unrealistic? If you think that controlling a guy off the ball is an unfair 2-1 advantage, then you simply do not know how to count or do not know how defense is executed in the NBA. You just think that your dick is bigger because you play on-the-ball defense in a video game and you want to flaunt it. Sorry princess, but no one really cares.

If a guy calls up a play and Kobe gets open, that's bad Defense, and Good Offense. Now you have some options Such as I said in an earlier Post, you can Zone it up, you can double him, or you can tweak the pressure. the point being you have plenty of options to try to slow down Kobe that doesn't involve you playing off the ball

By your definition, there is no realistic way to play Lakers vs. Celtics without "cheesing." Kobe never guards Rondo, he plays free safety at the top of the key all game to play passing lanes and double down when needed. Is him sticking Rondo all game realistic? By your criteria, there is no way to do this without it being unfair. We can also apparently not play with the Bulls without cheesing as Pippen and Jordan were two of the most notorious ball hawks off the ball, particularly Pippen who made his entire defensive reputation by his his ability to help and recover on the perimeter quicker than anyone else in the league.

There going to do that anyway, if you throw into traffic the ball is going to get stolen... now you scout your opponent, and you know Rondo can't shoot the ball, you're going to lag off of him and play the drive, and the passing lanes.... Still Sim, but guess what still on ball

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Guys...seriously.

You're wasting your time and really beatin a dead horse on this issue. I've been following this thread over the past couple of days or so since it's been posted and these are the things that seem to stand out the most as FACT:

1. Newmoon has clearly stated his position on this whole "on-ball D" perspective which is, in order to be considered a "sim" player on NBA 2K, you have to take control of the immediate defender on the ballhandler.

2. The vast majority of us agree (IN THIS THREAD) that though this makes a good amount of sense, including all the other "rules" it entails, to be a "sim" player, it does not mean that those who play against those guides are to be outright proclaimed as "cheesers".

3. Absolutely, no matter what, newmoon feels that those who willingly go opposed to these "guides", specifically, for this thread, in regards to "on-ball D", are "cheesing" and do not represent (in his opinion) the true "sim" nature intended for the game.

Now, amongst these 3 obvious facts from this thread, a lot of bickering, namecalling, and belittling has transpired with no true discussion taking place. Newmoon, as I've stated before, you're being really harsh on those of us that enjoy the "sim" style we've come accustomed to and enjoy, making this gaming experience enriching and worth the $60+ we've spent in order to do so. Not that it's my authority in any stretch of the imagination, but you can't just come on a "SIM" sports forum and proclaim everyone that disagrees with you a cheese cause they don't fit your frame. There are plenty of other boards across the net that REALLY need these rules, and you'd probably be serving yourself a better good by sending this perspective there... Not unless of course, you're purposely trying to instigate some type of flame war on an OS board...not saying that you are the type...or at least I'd hope not.

For you other guys, as many have stated, Newmoon is not only entailed to his opinion, but also his pursuit to spread it to those he feels might be like minded in that aspect (even though it may seem disingenuous at times). Let him have his thread. Stop trying to refute him and disassemble his argument. In many regards it is sound and relevant to what we all pursue outside of the pure fun nature of the game, and that is a true representation of what we see from it's reallife counter part. If it wasn't, I'm almost certain that a Mod would have come in here and shut the whole topic down by now. State your peace, whether it be accepted or refuted, and move along. No one is really doing themselves any good here with the constant back and forth...

IMO of course.

Well written Post, and by no means am I an antagonist. I merely place facts down as proof. Here are the facts:

1) people get online to play against a Human opponent
2) if the Computer is playing Defense for you, I am no longer playing against a human.

Now I know by now you have watched that Hawks, Hornets video, and guess what the Human controlled defender was doing.... playing on Ball Defense. they say a picture is worth a thousand words, how about a 5min video?

[TalenT]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Lol @ You guys. I love these type of topics.....SO CONTROVERSIAL! Lol.

Cheesing is actually defined by your opinion of it though. I used to think everything under the sun was cheesing till I started getting better and understanding the game more. "Most" things in the game can be countered. There are obvious things that I think we can all agree on that are pure cheese though! Likeeeee...

I know it can be stopped but I really hate the lead pass right past a defender that could've easily intercepted it.

[SpSoloSr]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Well written Post, and by no means am I an antagonist. I merely place facts down as proof. Here are the facts:

1) people get online to play against a Human opponent
2) if the Computer is playing Defense for you, I am no longer playing against a human.

Now I know by now you have watched that Hawks, Hornets video, and guess what the Human controlled defender was doing.... playing on Ball Defense. they say a picture is worth a thousand words, how about a 5min video?

Yea, but we also saw what he was doing on offense too. I did pick up on the on-ball d aspect and it immediately reminded me of the thread. Lol.

[drewbs]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

There going to do that anyway, if you throw into traffic the ball is going to get stolen... now you scout your opponent, and you know Rondo can't shoot the ball, you're going to lag off of him and play the drive, and the passing lanes.... Still Sim, but guess what still on ball

There is a difference between sagging off and playing free safety. Kind of hard to be on the ball when the man he's supposed to be guarding does not have the ball.


And I'm sorry but using sets like zones and man to man and pressure settings does not deal with what I am talking about. You cannot set it so that your cpu defenders go over or under screens. Kobe getting open off an off the ball screen is just bad defense and good offense? So... if the CPU defender keeps getting caught on that screen, we're obligated for our team to play bad defense? That is fair right?

Doubling him? Zoning it up? What is this, middle school basketball? I was not aware that by zoning, that it magically makes helps anticipate on defense. Your method basically takes out the entire basis of defensive anticipation. Let's use an example shall we?

There is one triangle set that I always loved running with the Lakers because Kobe always gets an isolation about 11 ft away from the basket on the strong side. Being in that midrange area in a triple threat position, the guy is basically unstoppable especially if there is no one to help right away. EVERY team in the NBA has a defender shade that strong side elbow area so they can double down when Kobe gets into that spot in the NBA. But you can't do that in the game, you can't set a teammate to zone up in one area or to double when Kobe is at a certain spot on the floor. The only way you can do that is by playing off the ball and shading that area yourself. I'm sure you consider that "unfair" because then you are playing "2 on 1" right? Despite the fact that someone else has to be open when the double comes?

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Guys...seriously.

You're wasting your time and really beatin a dead horse on this issue. I've been following this thread over the past couple of days or so since it's been posted and these are the things that seem to stand out the most as FACT:

2. The vast majority of us agree (IN THIS THREAD) that though this makes a good amount of sense, including all the other "rules" it entails, to be a "sim" player, it does not mean that those who play against those guides are to be outright proclaimed as "cheesers".

SpSoloSr, I agree with most of your post indeed ... where I have a problem with is from the statement of on ball D = not sim ... as I think is already been stablished that it is not cheese as it can be effectivelly countered.

I believe that off ball D it is not an unsim way to play the game, its rather how you play it. If you play it the right way (which has been properly stated) its an integral part of a sim experience ... and that has yet to be acknowledge by the OP when he has fail to prove us wrong with facts ... at least in respect of positions like mine (and many others too).

I also have to admit that there are some peopple who have posted here that dont play off ball D in the proper way, as their comments clearly revail and that only serves to circunscribe us into the offensive prejudice of off ball D = not sim.

But for the sake of "free expression" I wont continue to refute this nonesense.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Yea, but we also saw what he was doing on offense too. I did pick up on the on-ball d aspect and it immediately reminded me of the thread. Lol.

Yea reminded me of this thread also lol kinda like a big Giant I thought so lol

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

There is a difference between sagging off and playing free safety. Kind of hard to be on the ball when the man he's supposed to be guarding does not have the ball.


And I'm sorry but using sets like zones and man to man and pressure settings does not deal with what I am talking about. You cannot set it so that your cpu defenders go over or under screens. Kobe getting open off an off the ball screen is just bad defense and good offense? So... if the CPU defender keeps getting caught on that screen, we're obligated for our team to play bad defense? That is fair right?

The court isn't a football field wide... there is more than enough time to recover, or send help..... you can't what if me to death

Doubling him? Zoning it up? What is this, middle school basketball? I was not aware that by zoning, that it magically makes helps anticipate on defense. Your method basically takes out the entire basis of defensive anticipation. Let's use an example shall we?

There is one triangle set that I always loved running with the Lakers because Kobe always gets an isolation about 11 ft away from the basket on the strong side. Being in that midrange area in a triple threat position, the guy is basically unstoppable especially if there is no one to help right away. EVERY team in the NBA has a defender shade that strong side elbow area so they can double down when Kobe gets into that spot in the NBA. But you can't do that in the game, you can't set a teammate to zone up in one area or to double when Kobe is at a certain spot on the floor. The only way you can do that is by playing off the ball and shading that area yourself. I'm sure you consider that "unfair" because then you are playing "2 on 1" right? Despite the fact that someone else has to be open when the double comes?

if you see that play, and you don't switch to a zone to help defend the Black Mamba what do you want think is going to happen? Now all those others defensive adjustments you should take it to the wishlist thread, it sounds like some good ideas. And yes it would be 2 against 1, except it's me Vs you, and the CPU all at the same time... all the time......

[TUSS11]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

if you see that play, and you don't switch to a zone to help defend the Black Mamba what do you want think is going to happen? Now all those others defensive adjustments you should take it to the wishlist thread, it sounds like some good ideas. And yes it would be 2 against 1, except it's me Vs you, and the CPU all at the same time... all the time......

Switching from man-to-man to a zone in the middle of a possession is not sim. Have you ever seen an NBA team do that? It would be nearly impossible for 5 players to react to their coach's command and immediately go to their assigned zone positions.

Remember your motto..."If it's not sim, it's gotta be cheese!"

[Dawgthem]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I'm not going to argue my basketball IQ because that has nothing to do what were talking about. However I have explained to you on countless times the hows and whys of On ball Defending.

Okay first off you haven't giving anyone the know hows of anything you have your opinion of what on ball d is and why people play off ball d..its your opinion dosen't matter to anyone else. You just do you and ima do me

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Switching from man-to-man to a zone in the middle of a possession is not sim. Have you ever seen an NBA team do that? It would be nearly impossible for 5 players to react to their coach's command and immediately go to their assigned zone positions.

Remember your motto..."If it's not sim, it's gotta be cheese!"

YOu know what I mean, meaning if the guy is killing you with a certain play, and you don't adjust your defense from man to zone.... the guy said he used a Iso play all the time, and there was no way to stop it.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Okay first off you haven't giving anyone the know hows of anything you have your opinion of what on ball d is and why people play off ball d..its your opinion dosen't matter to anyone else. You just do you and ima do me

THen you clearly haven't been comprehending what I have been writing.... your last statement is my sentiments exactly, but while your'e doing you. Make sure you let me know your from wisconsin before hand. At least give me an oppurtunity to say thanks but no thanks

[Dawgthem]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

THen you clearly haven't been comprehending what I have been writing.... your last statement is my sentiments exactly, but while your'e doing you. Make sure you let me know your from wisconsin before hand. At least give me an oppurtunity to say thanks but no thanks

What you've been writing is your opinion its not a definte law of what Sim is off ball d ..not sim..its completely sim if its in the game and its logical then its simulation your still guarding a defender..2k11 has great space therefore no player will be able to simply roam the court..you just don't want to play the person guarding the ball player because your watching a very active passing lane ..or guarding a person you know is most likely to get the ball its completely sane. I think your just a little to overboard on the Sim thing itselfs and you've contemplated these rules to how you play not how simluation players play..to craft actual knowledge of sim you have to think from anothers persons perspective not from yourself

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

What you've been writing is your opinion its not a definte law of what Sim is off ball d ..not sim..its completely sim if its in the game and its logical then its simulation your still guarding a defender..2k11 has great space therefore no player will be able to simply roam the court..you just don't want to play the person guarding the ball player because your watching a very active passing lane ..or guarding a person you know is most likely to get the ball its completely sane. I think your just a little to overboard on the Sim thing itselfs and you've contemplated these rules to how you play not how simluation players play..to craft actual knowledge of sim you have to think from anothers persons perspective not from yourself

There are a lot of things that are in the game that would be considered non-sim, so the argument of if it's in the game doesn't apply. I'm telling you my opinion backed up with sound logic, however you completely ignore all logic, and just tell me how you feel. I have answered your question on how to guard the passing lanes while still on ball guarding, I have given you every defensive assistance that the game allows you to do while guarding the ball yet none of those has been considered.

You want the computer to play defense for you, knock yourself out, but don't come in here and tell me you're 100% sim. You're not, now you might not be 100% Cheese either, more like 50%. There is more to basketball than dribbling and shooting.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

So even if the person playing off the ball is playing the game so that it looks exactly as it would appear in real life their still a cheeser? Isn't the whole point (as it relates to sim games) to play the game like its the real deal? If they can deliver that experience off the ball whats the problem?

I want to know what is the singular reason you play off ball D, it wouldn't be because the cpu does a 100% better job of guarding the HUMAN controlled ball handler is it?