Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

My previouos post ... just in case ...

I normally start playing on ball d, but when I see a trend of my opponent either constantly passing the ball to "Kobe/Howard" in the post and/or frequently breaking my defense by iso-driving it, I take a help defender and try to convince him to not to abuse.

Also, there are games were the AI is just plain re-tarded (maybe because of some pretty bad defensive teams and individual low ratings or maybe by a previous mistake of mine) and I need to compensate that by taking one (or more) of the off the ball players in order to place him where he is supposed to be.

I agree that someone who is always camping on the paint, who is always doing double team and who is always looking for a steal or a block are cheesers but ... I have always feel that those who blindly predicate that playing "strictly" on ball D (with no off ball what so ever) is sim, are those who are just, plain and simple: good with the sticks (not necessarilly sim players at all) and need to convince themselves and others that doing that is the utopy of bball videogaming, when they are truelly negating and trying to avoid their opponent strategy superiority ... wrestling minigames come to my mind, almost entirely by and for above able sticks users.

Basketball is indeed "more complex" than physical attributes (or stick skills in this case), is truelly a "team" sport, were 5 players face 5 players, were 2 coaches face each other (having entire squads and schemes at their dispossals), were strategies and counters are met, were anticipation is a most (I am good at it) ... and yes, were sticks skills (I compare it to physical attributes, am soso at it, by the way) also collide (yet, as important as they are, are not the alone factor to dictate a win , which most tend to believe... look at MJ, he was an excellent athlete but he was far more a superb player with his "on the court IQ").

I have faced, allegatedlly sim players, that while strictly playing on ball d, spend the whole game doing alley oops, constant driving with iso crossovers/hop steps and doing excesive pick and rolls (and werent even using PHO nor UTAH to at least have an argument, thus still absurd).

I laugh at one of the most unreasonable yet commum approaches: "the game is and plays perfect, you are the imperfect one, the only variable that makes all wrong" ... while right in some cases, understand that the game was made by humans, and humans are imperfects ... does it makes a lot of sense that the game is perfect ? ... yet, with every itineration the mortal devs make "improvements" and corrections to their "perfect" engine.

Sim is a style of play were you dont feel handcuffed when you "dont do what you were given", If you feel like that when you do "excesses", then maybe you are not so sim (even if the defense is letting you) ... it comes as a natural sim response/action not to do unproportionate things because you dont see that in the sport ... yes real teams/players could, but they dont, so do/dont you. To me, real sim player dont go un sim if they are being beaten by an un sim player, they just stick to their way of play and try to disrupt the opponents gameplay with strategy, rather than cheese.

I would love to see some footage of the two sides of the coin battling, not to see who is better or who wins the game but rather, how far the 2 approaches are in respect of sim ... if any.

P.D.
And you certainly can have fun and win, playing sim ... thus cheesers or sim can always loose, even if they stick to their gamestyle.

[NDAlum]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Pathetic in a sim Oriented game.... Now do what you do in a lobby game, or a win at all cost game, in fact throw out all the rules in that instance. But I'm saying that if a person asks for a sim game, and you agree, there is a standard that has to be adhered to, and ON Ball D is, and should be a staple of SIM. That's all I'm saying.

Oh, so you simply insult those who play the game differently. Well do what you do.

[NDAlum]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

My previouos post ... just in case ...

Clearly by OP standards you're pathetic with your off ball D

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Clearly by OP standards you're pathetic with your off ball D

But I'm saying that if a person asks for a sim game, and you agree, there is a standard that has to be adhered to, and 100% ON Ball D is not, and should not be a staple of SIM. That's all I'm saying. :wink:

[Todem]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Your heart is in the right place here and I agree with the overall point. But you are being a bit ridiculous. I play with people of like mind online whenever I can help it. If a guy is playing the game as a direct representation of real basketball I am totally ok. If he wants to play off that ball thats fine. As long I'm seeing what I would normally see in a real game I don't mind one bit.

^^^^^

This.

End of thread.

[Dawgthem]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

/Bravo! This is what I'm talking about.... These topics show you just how many cheesers there are out here in videogame land, and they will defend their Cheese like a Lion protecting it's cub.



All I can say is WOW! You sir are not Sim, Good day, I said GOOD DAY!



What the heck are you talking about! This Post is ridiculous, read some of the posts here in this topic, and you will see where the defensive assistance comes from. No one is telling you not to do what you want, do it til you're blue in the face, but just know this you are not Sim, you are a Cheeser. And guess what that's ok!

Whoa slow down pocahontas. First off off ball d is compeltely sim. If I know my opponent is going to roltate the ball to durant. Why would i play the pg. why don't i just play durant and be ready to try to intercept the pass.. how about i not play the ball defender and try to space my self from him and watch the pass to durant cause the cpu i know isn't going to play the passing lane..HUH!!..its completely sane its no diffrent from what someone does on the court. SOme things you have to do yourself..if your passing it to kobe after lamar touches the ball then i'm not going to play lamar or fisher i'm playing kobe wether he has the ball or not...its caused strategic sim

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Whoa slow down pocahontas. First off off ball d is compeltely sim. If I know my opponent is going to roltate the ball to durant. Why would i play the pg. why don't i just play durant and be ready to try to intercept the pass.. how about i not play the ball defender and try to space my self from him and watch the pass to durant cause the cpu i know isn't going to play the passing lane..HUH!!..its completely sane its no diffrent from what someone does on the court. SOme things you have to do yourself..if your passing it to kobe after lamar touches the ball then i'm not going to play lamar or fisher i'm playing kobe wether he has the ball or not...its caused strategic sim

I can only control one person on the court at a time, that is the person with the ball, so there for it gives you an unfair advantage Defense Vs Offense. Now If while you're playing in passing lanes, the person you leave rotates to the open spot everytime, or falls to the rim every time then I will maybe change my oppinion.

I think that people who play Off ball D just can't play D, and they know that the CPU does a better job. I do have to reiterate this make sure you are talking about a sim game, and not a cheese fest when you come up with your defensive strategies.

[mikenoob]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I can only control one person on the court at a time, that is the person with the ball

Actually you could use offball control.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I cant ellude to think that people who fervently claim that to solely play On ball D is sim, cant properly play O and neither do D ... they dont know how to take advantage of that so called 2vs1 situation, which is simple bball IQ (101) ... whenever there are 2 defensive players at one side there is one offensive player open on your side ... also, on D, a good "stick skill" more often than not isnt sufficient enough to cover up anticipation, strategy and propper rotation.

I just do have to reiterate this to make sure you are talking about a sim game, and not a charade where you have to cover up with your defensive premises and your offensive prejudices. :wink:<!-- / message -->

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Actually you could use offball control.

that is the most clunkiest set of controls in any game period!

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I think that people who play Off ball D just can't play D, and they know that the CPU does a better job. I do have to reiterate this make sure you are talking about a sim game, and not a cheese fest when you come up with your defensive strategies.

So even if the person playing off the ball is playing the game so that it looks exactly as it would appear in real life their still a cheeser? Isn't the whole point (as it relates to sim games) to play the game like its the real deal? If they can deliver that experience off the ball whats the problem?

[drewbs]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I can only control one person on the court at a time, that is the person with the ball, so there for it gives you an unfair advantage Defense Vs Offense. Now If while you're playing in passing lanes, the person you leave rotates to the open spot everytime, or falls to the rim every time then I will maybe change my oppinion.

I think that people who play Off ball D just can't play D, and they know that the CPU does a better job. I do have to reiterate this make sure you are talking about a sim game, and not a cheese fest when you come up with your defensive strategies.

NO, it doesn't. And apparently you can't count either. A player can only control one player on defense as well. Do you use off the ball controls? Is that cheesing as well? You know, controlling the player off the ball to fight for post position, or controlling a player off the ball to come off a screen. How is that fair but controlling a player off the ball on defense is not?

Say you are running a play for Kobe to come off a screen and the CPU defender gets caught on the screen. Then you give Kobe the ball and suddenly, you are playing 1 on 0 because the defender is cannot recover quick enough even if you switch to control the guy who is being screened. Is that considered a "fair" advantage for offense over defense?

The most common defensive tactic against high scoring offensive threats is ball denial. If the CPU is not effectively fighting through screens, is it unfair for me to control the off the ball defender who is checking Kobe so that I can cover him better and keep him off his hot-spots? Is that unfair? Is it unrealistic? If you think that controlling a guy off the ball is an unfair 2-1 advantage, then you simply do not know how to count or do not know how defense is executed in the NBA. You just think that your dick is bigger because you play on-the-ball defense in a video game and you want to flaunt it. Sorry princess, but no one really cares.

By your definition, there is no realistic way to play Lakers vs. Celtics without "cheesing." Kobe never guards Rondo, he plays free safety at the top of the key all game to play passing lanes and double down when needed. Is him sticking Rondo all game realistic? By your criteria, there is no way to do this without it being unfair. We can also apparently not play with the Bulls without cheesing as Pippen and Jordan were two of the most notorious ball hawks off the ball, particularly Pippen who made his entire defensive reputation by his his ability to help and recover on the perimeter quicker than anyone else in the league.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Say you are running a play for Kobe to come off a screen and the CPU defender gets caught on the screen. Then you give Kobe the ball and suddenly, you are playing 1 on 0 because the defender is cannot recover quick enough even if you switch to control the guy who is being screened. Is that considered a "fair" advantage for offense over defense?

The most common defensive tactic against high scoring offensive threats is ball denial. If the CPU is not effectively fighting through screens, is it unfair for me to control the off the ball defender who is checking Kobe so that I can cover him better and keep him off his hot-spots? Is that unfair? Is it unrealistic? If you think that controlling a guy off the ball is an unfair 2-1 advantage, then you simply do not know how to count or do not know how defense is executed in the NBA.

I was waiting for him to replay my posts ... which he clearly cant and evades ... to ask him that very same question ... we both agree on this matter ... what we both disagree is in the manner you replay to him, dont get "personal" (and I know you know what I ment) ... there is no excuse to go into that territory as it is not a proper "sim" behavior :wink:.

[SpSoloSr]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Guys...seriously.

You're wasting your time and really beatin a dead horse on this issue. I've been following this thread over the past couple of days or so since it's been posted and these are the things that seem to stand out the most as FACT:

1. Newmoon has clearly stated his position on this whole "on-ball D" perspective which is, in order to be considered a "sim" player on NBA 2K, you have to take control of the immediate defender on the ballhandler.

2. The vast majority of us agree (IN THIS THREAD) that though this makes a good amount of sense, including all the other "rules" it entails, to be a "sim" player, it does not mean that those who play against those guides are to be outright proclaimed as "cheesers".

3. Absolutely, no matter what, newmoon feels that those who willingly go opposed to these "guides", specifically, for this thread, in regards to "on-ball D", are "cheesing" and do not represent (in his opinion) the true "sim" nature intended for the game.

Now, amongst these 3 obvious facts from this thread, a lot of bickering, namecalling, and belittling has transpired with no true discussion taking place. Newmoon, as I've stated before, you're being really harsh on those of us that enjoy the "sim" style we've come accustomed to and enjoy, making this gaming experience enriching and worth the $60+ we've spent in order to do so. Not that it's my authority in any stretch of the imagination, but you can't just come on a "SIM" sports forum and proclaim everyone that disagrees with you a cheese cause they don't fit your frame. There are plenty of other boards across the net that REALLY need these rules, and you'd probably be serving yourself a better good by sending this perspective there... Not unless of course, you're purposely trying to instigate some type of flame war on an OS board...not saying that you are the type...or at least I'd hope not.

For you other guys, as many have stated, Newmoon is not only entailed to his opinion, but also his pursuit to spread it to those he feels might be like minded in that aspect (even though it may seem disingenuous at times). Let him have his thread. Stop trying to refute him and disassemble his argument. In many regards it is sound and relevant to what we all pursue outside of the pure fun nature of the game, and that is a true representation of what we see from it's reallife counter part. If it wasn't, I'm almost certain that a Mod would have come in here and shut the whole topic down by now. State your peace, whether it be accepted or refuted, and move along. No one is really doing themselves any good here with the constant back and forth...

IMO of course.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I cant ellude to think that people who fervently claim that to solely play On ball D is sim, cant properly play O and neither do D ... they dont know how to take advantage of that so called 2vs1 situation, which is simple bball IQ (101) ... whenever there are 2 defensive players at one side there is one offensive player open on your side ... also, on D, a good "stick skill" more often than not isnt sufficient enough to cover up anticipation, strategy and propper rotation.

I just do have to reiterate this to make sure you are talking about a sim game, and not a charade where you have to cover up with your defensive premises and your offensive prejudices. :wink:<!-- / message -->

I'm not going to argue my basketball IQ because that has nothing to do what were talking about. However I have explained to you on countless times the hows and whys of On ball Defending.