Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

[drewbs]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

YOu know what I mean, meaning if the guy is killing you with a certain play, and you don't adjust your defense from man to zone.... the guy said he used a Iso play all the time, and there was no way to stop it.

You really just do not get it do you? It's not about switching up your defense, it's about playing positional defense. It's not that it's an iso play, it's that it's an iso play that creates a certain type of spacing on the court that puts Kobe at a very advantageous position. If you honestly think that the best way to guard a post up while you have the kind of spacing in this play is to just run a zone then I honestly question your basketball knowledge. Why run a full zone and leave the entire offense open to a kick out on a collapse when I could just shade Kobe with a help defender and hard double when he makes a move? That's what NBA teams do, why shouldn't I? A zone is not going to force a team out of that play, it's not going to stop Kobe's ability to isolate in that play and it leaves everyone else susceptible to a kick out if he drives (though he's close enough where he can just post up and shoot over his defender and make it about 70-80% of the time anyway). Why is playing as a the help defender unfair? Because it forces you out of the play? Is it unfair in real life when teams run that and it forces Kobe out of his spot?

How can you be "sim" if you don't even understand basic NBA defenses. If you really think defending an NBA team in a real game is as simple as man to man and zone, then I gotta question your ability to read a real NBA game. And if you can't do that, how can you really think that you're playing NBA style ball in an NBA simulation?

What is "sim" to you? Playing NBA style ball that has been in place for decades? Or following some silly rules that you came up with?

[MelMan1486]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

You really just do not get it do you? It's not about switching up your defense, it's about playing positional defense. It's not that it's an iso play, it's that it's an iso play that creates a certain type of spacing on the court that puts Kobe at a very advantageous position. If you honestly think that the best way to guard a post up while you have the kind of spacing in this play is to just run a zone then I honestly question your basketball knowledge. Why run a full zone and leave the entire offense open to a kick out on a collapse when I could just shade Kobe with a help defender and hard double when he makes a move? That's what NBA teams do, why shouldn't I? A zone is not going to force a team out of that play, it's not going to stop Kobe's ability to isolate in that play and it leaves everyone else susceptible to a kick out if he drives (though he's close enough where he can just post up and shoot over his defender and make it about 70-80% of the time anyway). Why is playing as a the help defender unfair? Because it forces you out of the play? Is it unfair in real life when teams run that and it forces Kobe out of his spot?

How can you be "sim" if you don't even understand basic NBA defenses. If you really think defending an NBA team in a real game is as simple as man to man and zone, then I gotta question your ability to read a real NBA game. And if you can't do that, how can you really think that you're playing NBA style ball in an NBA simulation?

What is "sim" to you? Playing NBA style ball that has been in place for decades? Or following some silly rules that you came up with?

Well said... the real problem is the word SIM. There is NO true sim style, everyone has their own version of sim and neither is right or wrong. Thats why there's so many leagues with so many different rules that all claim to be "sim".

[Cavaliers10]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I agree with everything you've said about sim-style play in 2k10, although there are a few things that I don't consider cheesy as much. Hopefully (HOPEFULLY) we won't have to address these kinds of things in 2k11 because the user will be forced to play Sim just to score buckets.

I don't think the off-ball players will be as well-off in 2k11 either, because the fake-passing could force them to jump in to the lane. Multiple times on the demo I have been overplaying the passing lanes to check the AI's intelligence and as long as the paint isn't clogged they'll usually cut behind me and get an easy layup or dunk. Hopefully the A.I. is smart enough to do that in online games when someone is overplaying the passing lanes.

[lnin0]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I don't know what I am ... other than a stinky video game bb player.

I don't cheese and exploit. I don't press inbounds. I walk the ball down court don't inbound it under the basket. I play on the ball and don't even know what button is double team. I don't know who a lot of the players are so don' t play favorites.

I don't know how to run plays so typically just pass around the top of the key hoping for someone to get open. I can't hit threes with any accuracy and my jumper stats are even more lopsided. I have no iso skills so I usually try to force a drive or the ball into the paint. Wiggling my way under the basket IS my only offense and my made shot chart looks like a campfire under the hoop. My offense is shut down easily - bascially becasue there is none. I and spend more than my fair share of time getting shot blocked or loosing the ball off my own foot. I don't quit ever though but sometimes I wish people would give me a mercy kill.

Am I the Timberwolves of "sim" players or just rotten cheese?

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

You really just do not get it do you? It's not about switching up your defense, it's about playing positional defense. It's not that it's an iso play, it's that it's an iso play that creates a certain type of spacing on the court that puts Kobe at a very advantageous position. If you honestly think that the best way to guard a post up while you have the kind of spacing in this play is to just run a zone then I honestly question your basketball knowledge. Why run a full zone and leave the entire offense open to a kick out on a collapse when I could just shade Kobe with a help defender and hard double when he makes a move? That's what NBA teams do, why shouldn't I? A zone is not going to force a team out of that play, it's not going to stop Kobe's ability to isolate in that play and it leaves everyone else susceptible to a kick out if he drives (though he's close enough where he can just post up and shoot over his defender and make it about 70-80% of the time anyway). Why is playing as a the help defender unfair? Because it forces you out of the play? Is it unfair in real life when teams run that and it forces Kobe out of his spot?

How can you be "sim" if you don't even understand basic NBA defenses. If you really think defending an NBA team in a real game is as simple as man to man and zone, then I gotta question your ability to read a real NBA game. And if you can't do that, how can you really think that you're playing NBA style ball in an NBA simulation?

What is "sim" to you? Playing NBA style ball that has been in place for decades? Or following some silly rules that you came up with?

Well written post, however still doesn't pass the smell test. You want me to believe that your only reason for playing Off Ball D is because you want to deny player X the ball, or get the ball out of Player X's hands....

Lets look at this from a sim players perspective. You want to deny Player X the ball you shade off of the ball handler.... You want to get the ball out of Player X's hands you bring over a double team, if he kicks it out you rotate your defense to the next person with the ball. Guess what you are still playing on ball Defense.... Instead you have the computer Guard the ball handler, the COMPUTER......

That's Cheese in my book.

[Krodis]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Well written post, however still doesn't pass the smell test. You want me to believe that your only reason for playing Off Ball D is because you want to deny player X the ball, or get the ball out of Player X's hands....

Lets look at this from a sim players perspective. You want to deny Player X the ball you shade off of the ball handler.... You want to get the ball out of Player X's hands you bring over a double team, if he kicks it out you rotate your defense to the next person with the ball. Guess what you are still playing on ball Defense.... Instead you have the computer Guard the ball handler, the COMPUTER......

That's Cheese in my book.

Are you implying you should leave you man wide open with the ball just because you want to deny someone off the ball?

You really think it in any way replicates actual NBA basketball for the man guarding the ball-handler to have to assume all the responsibilities of the defense, including cutting off passing lanes and denying post entry?

Do you even WATCH basketball?

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Are you implying you should leave you man wide open with the ball just because you want to deny someone off the ball?

You really think it in any way replicates actual NBA basketball for the man guarding the ball-handler to have to assume all the responsibilities of the defense, including cutting off passing lanes and denying post entry?

Do you even WATCH basketball?

you're definitely exaggerating how bad the cpu defends there man off ball.... They are always fighting for position, they have active hands, and certain teams do a nice job of clogging the lane on drives. Also where does shading off of the ball handler mean leaving a player wide open? You can make all the excuses you want, you're using a cheap tactic.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I agree with everything you've said about sim-style play in 2k10, although there are a few things that I don't consider cheesy as much. Hopefully (HOPEFULLY) we won't have to address these kinds of things in 2k11 because the user will be forced to play Sim just to score buckets.

I don't think the off-ball players will be as well-off in 2k11 either, because the fake-passing could force them to jump in to the lane. Multiple times on the demo I have been overplaying the passing lanes to check the AI's intelligence and as long as the paint isn't clogged they'll usually cut behind me and get an easy layup or dunk. Hopefully the A.I. is smart enough to do that in online games when someone is overplaying the passing lanes.

This action has to be inate, without even having to call a play.... That's the only way to keep these cheesers in check

[drewbs]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Well written post, however still doesn't pass the smell test. You want me to believe that your only reason for playing Off Ball D is because you want to deny player X the ball, or get the ball out of Player X's hands....

Lets look at this from a sim players perspective. You want to deny Player X the ball you shade off of the ball handler.... You want to get the ball out of Player X's hands you bring over a double team, if he kicks it out you rotate your defense to the next person with the ball. Guess what you are still playing on ball Defense.... Instead you have the computer Guard the ball handler, the COMPUTER......

That's Cheese in my book.

I am not trying to prove to you that I am "sim." I am trying to let you know that your idea of man vs. zone is a superficial view of basketball, and how ridiculous being "sim" is when it doesn't even reflect reality.

If you want to talk about playing on the ball defense in the interest of fairness, perhaps that is one thing. But if saying somehow that playing off the ball defense is not "sim" (which I interpret... sim->simulation->realism), is simply untrue.

I am not talking about shading off the ball handler. I am talking about using someone who is not guarding a scoring threat to zone up a certain area of the floor on defense so that he is in position to help when Kobe gets to his spot. You seem to have this 2 on 2 view of basketball rather than a 5 on 5 view of basketball. Your strategy for ball denial sucks. Use the guy who is guarding the ball handler to shade Kobe? Are you kidding me? No team in the NBA does this, so how is it "sim"? No one is going to sag off of Derek Fisher who is making that post entry pass so they can double Kobe when he gets the ball because Derek Fisher is just going to shoot it and make it with absolutely no pressure. But according to your "sim rules" that's how a "sim" player would guard that play. Luckily, real NBA players and coaches are not that stupid and teams can guard that effectively until Kobe starts adjusting. You never answered my question, what does "sim" mean?

Playing NBA style ball or following your rules?

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I am not trying to prove to you that I am "sim." I am trying to let you know that your idea of man vs. zone is a superficial view of basketball, and how ridiculous being "sim" is when it doesn't even reflect reality.

If you want to talk about playing on the ball defense in the interest of fairness, perhaps that is one thing. But if saying somehow that playing off the ball defense is not "sim" (which I interpret... sim->simulation->realism), is simply untrue.

I am not talking about shading off the ball handler. I am talking about using someone who is not guarding a scoring threat to zone up a certain area of the floor on defense so that he is in position to help when Kobe gets to his spot. You seem to have this 2 on 2 view of basketball rather than a 5 on 5 view of basketball. Your strategy for ball denial sucks. Use the guy who is guarding the ball handler to shade Kobe? Are you kidding me? No team in the NBA does this, so how is it "sim"? No one is going to sag off of Derek Fisher who is making that post entry pass so they can double Kobe when he gets the ball because Derek Fisher is just going to shoot it and make it with absolutely no pressure. But according to your "sim rules" that's how a "sim" player would guard that play. Luckily, real NBA players and coaches are not that stupid and teams can guard that effectively until Kobe starts adjusting. You never answered my question, what does "sim" mean?

Playing NBA style ball or following your rules?

It's a pointless arguement with new moon and I gave up on him. He has 1 view, doesn't even try to understand another view besides his own nor does he understand true basketball and the nuances of defense and the strategy behind it. 90% of this thread and the poll in it all point to our way of thinking so just write off new moon to "ignorant" and let it go is my advise! LOL!

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I am not trying to prove to you that I am "sim." I am trying to let you know that your idea of man vs. zone is a superficial view of basketball, and how ridiculous being "sim" is when it doesn't even reflect reality.

If you want to talk about playing on the ball defense in the interest of fairness, perhaps that is one thing. But if saying somehow that playing off the ball defense is not "sim" (which I interpret... sim->simulation->realism), is simply untrue.

newmoon-
* Defense
Controls the defender on the ball
A sim style player almost always is controlling the defender on the ball. Why? Because you’re playing head to head against another person, how you do on defense should depend on how well YOU play defense, not how well the CPU can guard the other player. The ball is where the action is….that’s where you, the gamer, should want to be playing. If you’re playing away from the ball, that just leads to dirty gameplay habits (which I’ll discuss later) anyhow. Besides, anyone who actually D’s up on the ball will tell you that a steal or a charge that YOU actually control is so much more gratifying than anything you can watch the CPU do for you.

I am not talking about shading off the ball handler. I am talking about using someone who is not guarding a scoring threat to zone up a certain area of the floor on defense so that he is in position to help when Kobe gets to his spot. You seem to have this 2 on 2 view of basketball rather than a 5 on 5 view of basketball. Your strategy for ball denial sucks. Use the guy who is guarding the ball handler to shade Kobe? Are you kidding me? No team in the NBA does this, so how is it "sim"? No one is going to sag off of Derek Fisher who is making that post entry pass so they can double Kobe when he gets the ball because Derek Fisher is just going to shoot it and make it with absolutely no pressure. But according to your "sim rules" that's how a "sim" player would guard that play. Luckily, real NBA players and coaches are not that stupid and teams can guard that effectively until Kobe starts adjusting. You never answered my question, what does "sim" mean?

Playing NBA style ball or following your rules?

to clearly answer your question of what does sim mean, it means not to cheese, exploit, cheat, abuse, or anything that doesn't look true to life. Now of course the literal term means sim - simulation, or a true representation of the nba. This of course isn't the NBA, rather a video game. But for arguments sake without muddying the water, when sim is mentioned it means the first definition.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

It's a pointless arguement with new moon and I gave up on him. He has 1 view, doesn't even try to understand another view besides his own nor does he understand true basketball and the nuances of defense and the strategy behind it. 90% of this thread and the poll in it all point to our way of thinking so just write off new moon to "ignorant" and let it go is my advise! LOL!

Ignorant for not accepting your cheese for what it is.... there is a well written post on the first page called the sim bible, you should take the time and read it.

P.S. before you dub someone as ignorant, you might want to pick up a dictionary.... it's advice....with a "C"

Good day to you sir, I said good day!!!

[ffpp]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Maybe, newmoon, you take this whole Off-ball thing to strictly. When you say that somebody is playing off the ball defense you seem to presume that he is doing that all the time and follow by thinking that he is either too bad or too lazy to play actual on-ball defense. I think this is not what most people try to tell here.

Maybe this example from my style of play will clear things up a bit:
Lets say the opposing PG brings up the ball, initiating some half court offense, so no fastbreaks or anything funky. I will then use the assigned defender and get in front of him, maybe put a little bit of pressure on him once he crosses mid-court. Then, depending on his shooting capabilities and willingness to shoot, driving tendency,etc I will either defend him more closely or sag off a bit. Also depends on the quickness of the player I'm holding control of.
There are obviously enough situation where I would switch defenders. E.g. I'm not always happy with how my CPU-teammates play the pick and roll defense so I might switch defenders to correct that, according to the situation.
But to bring the off-ball defense into play, this might occur if the other team runs some guys through screens and I see or assume that the defender does a bad job on following. This would be when I switch to the off-ball defender and get him into good defending position again. Maybe I immediatly switch back, maybe not - in the case that I expect a pass soon.

So the whole off-ball defense thing has nothing to do that I'm uncapable to follow the ball handler with my defender it's more like babysitting my team to keep everything tight and in position. This is especially crucial when running a zone defense for a while. Maybe all this will become totally redundant if in 2k11 the CPU teammates do a good enough job in positioning themselves, anticipating the offense and so on. But I feel that by playing off-ball defense I actually have more to do than just guarding the ball handler.
Defense is played everywhere at once. And by switching the defender you still have to play defense, because everybody is defending everytime your opponent has the ball.

If the opposing team has somebody standing around in the corner not moving, and I'm just defending this guy all game long, than yes: that might be considered cheesing. But I don't think that this is what people in this thread mean if they say 'off-ball defense'.

Oops, this post has gotton longer than intended :X

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Maybe, newmoon, you take this whole Off-ball thing to strictly. When you say that somebody is playing off the ball defense you seem to presume that he is doing that all the time and follow by thinking that he is either too bad or too lazy to play actual on-ball defense. I think this is not what most people try to tell here.

Maybe this example from my style of play will clear things up a bit:
Lets say the opposing PG brings up the ball, initiating some half court offense, so no fastbreaks or anything funky. I will then use the assigned defender and get in front of him, maybe put a little bit of pressure on him once he crosses mid-court. Then, depending on his shooting capabilities and willingness to shoot, driving tendency,etc I will either defend him more closely or sag off a bit. Also depends on the quickness of the player I'm holding control of.
There are obviously enough situation where I would switch defenders.
1.)E.g. I'm not always happy with how my CPU-teammates play the pick and roll defense so I might switch defenders to correct that, according to the situation.

But to bring the off-ball defense into play, this might occur if the other team runs some guys through screens and I see or assume that the defender does a bad job on following. 4.) This would be when I switch to the off-ball defender and get him into good defending position again. Maybe I immediatly switch back, maybe not - in the case that I expect a pass soon.

So the whole off-ball defense thing has nothing to do that I'm uncapable to follow the ball handler with my defender it's more like babysitting my team to keep everything tight and in position. This is especially crucial when running a zone defense for a while. Maybe all this will become totally redundant if in 2k11 the CPU teammates do a good enough job in positioning themselves, anticipating the offense and so on. But I feel that by playing off-ball defense I actually have more to do than just guarding the ball handler.
Defense is played everywhere at once. And by switching the defender you still have to play defense, because everybody is defending everytime your opponent has the ball.

If the opposing team has somebody standing around in the corner not moving, and I'm just defending this guy all game long, than yes: that might be considered cheesing. But I don't think that this is what people in this thread mean if they say 'off-ball defense'.

Oops, this post has gotton longer than intended :X

1.) if you see a play developing, why wouldn't you just shade your on ball defender to the passing lane side that the play is developing?

2.) so while you're running around defending someone who doesn't have the ball who is guarding the Human controlled ball handler?

have you ever played in a on ball Sim league?

[ffpp]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Shading has its drawback too. If I have to shade to the left because my teammate there is doing a poor job I'm giving the ball handler room to drive to my right.

Talking about 2k9 at leats, you can't defend 100% properly by guarding only the ball handler all the time. This is just a fact in my oppinion.

have you ever played in a on ball Sim league?

Nope, PC version didn't come with an online mode.