Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Perfect example trying to sound so smart that you forget to actually saying anything. You've ignored every statement I (and most other posters for that matter) have made about actual basketball. I don't think you even know what a blanket statement is. I HAVE used logic in my argument, with the entire basis that to play an accurate, NBA style, positional defense, you sometimes have to utilize off the ball control. Your simpleton view of basketball is the problem. You think that this is a game of one on one. This isn't 2004 Jethro, the 2k games have changed since then. If playing off the ball on defense is cheesing, then so is playing off the ball on offense. You can direct players to specific spots on the floor on offense, but you can't on defense? If you tell a guy to cut to the basket off a back screen, I can't have his defender follow him? I am forced to have a man wide open under the basket? And NO, zone does NOT fix this. Please get out of your YMCA rec league idea of basketball strategy.

Even when the man is directed to go to a spot on the floor the defense inately follows him, and defends.... Now you are trying to spin it as though the cpu goes to the spot he was initially going to, and now the offensive player is just wide open....

I don't care about defending my "cheese" defense, I don't even play online. I use off the ball defense sometimes to make sure my help defenders are in position to actually... you know, help. My issue is your haughty "I'm right, so all of you are wrong" attitude which is simply just annoying to read. You take this "sim" thing so seriously that I wonder if you are actually into basketball, or just basketball video games? I have a hard time believing that anyone who knows basketball on a strategic level (and I mean *actual* basketball where you get up and move around rather than sitting on your *** eating chips) would ever think these rules are any sort of reflection of real basketball.

How do I even answer this statement without sounding like a complete fool... Hmmm I like basketball, I understand the X's, and O's but I haven't played competitive organized ball. I have given you on multiple posts how you can defend all these issues you continue to bring up while playing ON-Ball.... if you refuse to even consider them why continue this convo?

I must have "sim" thought out all wrong. I always thought "sim" referred to playing the game in a style that was true to life and realistic while maintaining fairness and not exploiting holes in the game. Apparently this is not the case. You cannot do any of these with your rules.

I have also answered this question as well about what "Sim" means. The short answer is anything that is Cheese, isn't "SIM".

1) Off the ball control on offense is unfair, you can control Kobe and have him get great post position off the ball on the CPU defender with EASE. All at the push of a button. But you cannot defend this manually because that is "unfair." Ok.

Answered that in my first posting, read again if you need to.

2) Playing this simpleton version of NBA basketball where you simply switch defenders every time the ball is passed with complete disregard to anticipation of how the offensive play is going to play out is highly realistic. Because real NBA defense is never based on predictive positioning, right? That's why NBA scouts go out and scout how teams play, right? Or do they just sit around and play with their dicks all game?

Of course the game of basketball is predicated on tendencies, however the game gives you you plenty of options on how to make your man defend... the rest can be accomplished with a little user control.

3) Shooting mid range jumpers when the defense is giving you the lane all game is realistic, because that's what players in the NBA does right?

not even going to grace this with an answer.... your struggling to get a point out now trying this nonsense.


True basketball is a game of back and forth. The offense makes the defense adjust, and the defense adjusts making the offense change things up, which puts pressure on the defense to adjust again, etc. etc. THAT is how real basketball is. If an offensive player plays "sim" basketball to reflect real life, why can't the defensive player?

It is, and it can be done with an ON-Ball defense... IE: D.Howard get's the ball in the post, you switch to defend, he posts you up, you want to bring the Double, you switch men, and bring the double yourself.... Still on ball defense. Or you Can just call for a double, and continue to defend, and allow the cpu to bring pressure...

your post was well written, and had a couple of LOL moments.... If you're going to answer this one please answer my counter points to your points....

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Cheese, Cheese, Cheese. This seems to be the universal argument here when anybody doesn't agree 100% to the rules in the original posts.

If those rules where written down in 2004, maybe they don't even apply fully anymore. Maybe games are played a bit different now. Don't play online, just a suggestion.

it's not a literal translation, but a basis on which to use to apply a understanding for "SIM" games. Some things don't apply, IE: Hop Step, but Some things still do Like ON ball Defense....

Good God you are severely lacking in comprehension

[nova91]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Don't you all realize that some real NBA/teams don't meet some of these requirements for "Sim" gamestyle? So then that means if NBA 2k11 was as close as real life as possible - you'd still be complaining

Everybody has a certain style of gaming they like to play (just like in real life). The Detroit pistons & New York Knicks in the late 80's didn't play "Sim" at all, they were very anti-sim.

If you have a certain way of playing this game, find a league that has rules you like, and go from there. But don't sit up here and claim that your way should be the way it should be. Aside from glaring bugs and exploits, the game has been and will be a realistic depiction of real life basketball.

This is so true.

[drewbs]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

It is, and it can be done with an ON-Ball defense... IE: D.Howard get's the ball in the post, you switch to defend, he posts you up, you want to bring the Double, you switch men, and bring the double yourself.... Still on ball defense. Or you Can just call for a double, and continue to defend, and allow the cpu to bring pressure...

your post was well written, and had a couple of LOL moments.... If you're going to answer this one please answer my counter points to your points....

I honestly odn't think you are even understanding what I am saying.
[quote]Even when the man is directed to go to a spot on the floor the defense inately follows him, and defends.... Now you are trying to spin it as though the cpu goes to the spot he was initially going to, and now the offensive player is just wide open....

Sure, but that doesn't mean that the defense is defending the player the way you want him to. By manually controlling the defender you fight for post position, try to front, push him off his spot, etc. The CPU doesn't do this. Also, you cannot bring a help defender to shade while the post player already has position (but hasn't been passed the ball yet). Also, there is no way to chase a good shooter off his spot in this game without manually controlling the defender guarding him. Simply put, the CPU defender is too lax coming off a screen and since you can basically direct the guy to come off at whatever angle you want him too, it's absurdly easy to create openings for shooters off the ball unless the defensive player hounds him attentively, which the CPU defender doesn't do, even if you set the pressure to "high"
How do I even answer this statement without sounding like a complete fool... Hmmm I like basketball, I understand the X's, and O's but I haven't played competitive organized ball. I have given you on multiple posts how you can defend all these issues you continue to bring up while playing ON-Ball.... if you refuse to even consider them why continue this convo?
Because they don't address the issues. Adjusting pressure settings and switching between defensive sets does not adequately solve problems for the defense when the offense is running one play into the ground. If you are playing "sim" ball against a guy who is running the plays and exploiting the defense like an NBA offense does in real life, then there HAS to be an effective way to counter it to disrupt that offense's rhythm. Sets are just sets, they're not specific counters, manual adjustments with positioning and pressure are how you counter specific offensive maneuvers.
Of course the game of basketball is predicated on tendencies, however the game gives you you plenty of options on how to make your man defend... the rest can be accomplished with a little user control.The options are not always effective, this isn't some sort of RPG where a setting plugs one hole. There is a reason why the developers allow you to play off the ball. In this game, to fine tune those defensive adjustments

[AdamBa17]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

This Sounds Like what a cheeser would say... Not saying that you are, but it sure sounds like it. I play a game built around the NBA, and I expect my Opponent to Play Like a true representation of the NB to the best of their abilities. The other key word in that statement is Opponent... I, You, and Others get online to play against Humans. so for you to take the easy way out, and allow the COMPUTER to play your defense for you is Pathetic. Simple as that.

if its so pathetic why are you complaining?

why dont you like "cheesers"? is it because they beat you and it angers you?

if its so pathetic, why are you spending this much energy (creating a topic) to say how pathetic it is? if its because they beat you, are you that bad a player that you cant stop it? if its so pathetic, why can you not see past it and beat it with your superior play?

or is it just that you feel that your position in life is not what you want, so you have found a position for yourself to defend?

im not saying to be harsh, but as a reality check.

if its childish, set up a league of friends who play your way and ignore it.

but be honest with yourself...if its annoying because it works and it "shouldnt" you might need to evaluate your playing and up your game.

to be honest, no game will ever be what you want. its not the nba. its a game. games are made to be fun and challenging. not an exact mathematical example of what happens. if you want that, put down the controller, go outside and join a basketball team.

final thought: when kobe shoots a three on 5 consecutive posessions in the nba, its not "unrealistic". when he drives to the hole on 6 straight trips, its not "unrealistic".

[ffpp]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Good God you are severely lacking in comprehension

Nice, now we're moving to personal insults.

What people are trying to tell you is that to play a realistic brand of defense, you *sometimes* need to assist the AI in doing that by playing off the ball because it simply has some deficiencies in that area. Which makes the whole matter of playing D more complicated for yourself and therefore more challenging.
Whereas cheesing means to find some simple unstoppable exploit in the game and to use that to beat your opponent, making it easier for you.

So playing off ball when necessary is actually the opposite of cheesing in both regards, the outcome you see is more realistic and it is harder to do than just play on ball D all the time because it needs more overall supervision over the whole court and situation.

But this seems to be really hard to understand for you is what your responses here tell us.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Sure, but that doesn't mean that the defense is defending the player the way you want him to. By manually controlling the defender you fight for post position, try to front, push him off his spot, etc. The CPU doesn't do this. Also, you cannot bring a help defender to shade while the post player already has position (but hasn't been passed the ball yet). Also, there is no way to chase a good shooter off his spot in this game without manually controlling the defender guarding him. Simply put, the CPU defender is too lax coming off a screen and since you can basically direct the guy to come off at whatever angle you want him too, it's absurdly easy to create openings for shooters off the ball unless the defensive player hounds him attentively, which the CPU defender doesn't do, even if you set the pressure to "high"

so you're saying that the pressure settings are broke? and not only the pressure settings but the Loose, Normal, and Tight settings are broke? Hmmm.... I didn't know this.......
And I don't know if you know this but I see the computer fighting for position all the time. some time Good offense beats great defense, it happens through out the game. But guess what sometimes the defense wins.


Because they don't address the issues. Adjusting pressure settings and switching between defensive sets does not adequately solve problems for the defense when the offense is running one play into the ground. If you are playing "sim" ball against a guy who is running the plays and exploiting the defense like an NBA offense does in real life, then there HAS to be an effective way to counter it to disrupt that offense's rhythm. Sets are just sets, they're not specific counters, manual adjustments with positioning and pressure are how you counter specific offensive maneuvers.

Again in a sim game you don't have these problems with a player abusing one play mercilessly. There is a way to disrupt the offense you can harrass the hell out of the ball handler just to name one way....

The options are not always effective, this isn't some sort of RPG where a setting plugs one hole. There is a reason why the developers allow you to play off the ball. In this game, to fine tune those defensive adjustments

There is a reason the game developers allow you to dunk at will, or hop step at will, or do any number of Cheese things, that doesn't mean you should.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

There is a reason the game developers allow you to dunk at will, or hop step at will, or do any number of Cheese things, that doesn't mean you should.

The same can be said about on ball D as should is a subjective word that lets "you" decide if you do it or not, then again, propper off ball d isnt cheese, its a superior sim defense that doesnt solely relays on stick skills.

It is, and it can be done with an ON-Ball defense... IE: D.Howard get's the ball in the post, you switch to defend, he posts you up, you want to bring the Double, you switch men, and bring the double yourself.... Still on ball defense. Or you Can just call for a double, and continue to defend, and allow the cpu to bring pressure...

your post was well written, and had a couple of LOL moments.... If you're going to answer this one please answer my counter points to your points....

You have once again (for the third straight time) recognized that not only do off ball D is sim, but that you play off ball d yourself (check the bold part on your quoted statement) thus you conveniently choose to call it on ball d, instead of calling it by its correct name: off ball D ... this just make us all think that you are keeping this thread and your opening position alive just for the sake of not loosing and not recognizing your erroneous way of defining sim ... therefor you are leading us to believe that you are one of those who cant stand loosing ... and who would do "anything" to win, even going against reason and therefor sim ... humm!, he won me so he is a cheeser and an unsim player ... we have called your bluff or being more accuratelly, you have called your bluff ... you can call your responses the way you want, but in my book, there is only one fact: this whole thread is a back up plan to cover up your current and future claims when getting beating (yes I read you told us that you dont get beating, but I also read that you despise off ball d players for being unsim while you do just that, play off ball d, so ... I think you not getting beating is a bluff too) by a superior adversary playing a propper off ball d.

The only thing that really makes me sad is that, as opposed to what I first thought, rather than being a "Darth Vader" you are more of a "Darth Sidious" ... the force is strong in you but you are the personification of the dark side ... meaning all deceive and no hope.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Nice, now we're moving to personal insults.

Sir you insult me by not giving it the Ol' college try to at least and comprehend what has been previously written... you think......

What people are trying to tell you is that to play a realistic brand of defense, you *sometimes* need to assist the AI in doing that by playing off the ball because it simply has some deficiencies in that area. Which makes the whole matter of playing D more complicated for yourself and therefore more challenging.

now you are trying to tell me it's more complicated to let the computer play Defense for you..... LOL!!!!!

Whereas cheesing means to find some simple unstoppable exploit in the game and to use that to beat your opponent, making it easier for you.

That is not the only thing CHEESE means..... Get a grip.

So playing off ball when necessary is actually the opposite of cheesing in both regards, the outcome you see is more realistic and it is harder to do than just play on ball D all the time because it needs more overall supervision over the whole court and situation.

totally Laughable!

But this seems to be really hard to understand for you is what your responses here tell us.

it's definitely not my lack of understanding, I guarantee you that..

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

if its so pathetic why are you complaining?

why dont you like "cheesers"? is it because they beat you and it angers you?

if its so pathetic, why are you spending this much energy (creating a topic) to say how pathetic it is? if its because they beat you, are you that bad a player that you cant stop it? if its so pathetic, why can you not see past it and beat it with your superior play?

or is it just that you feel that your position in life is not what you want, so you have found a position for yourself to defend?

im not saying to be harsh, but as a reality check.

if its childish, set up a league of friends who play your way and ignore it.

but be honest with yourself...if its annoying because it works and it "shouldnt" you might need to evaluate your playing and up your game.

to be honest, no game will ever be what you want. its not the nba. its a game. games are made to be fun and challenging. not an exact mathematical example of what happens. if you want that, put down the controller, go outside and join a basketball team.

final thought: when kobe shoots a three on 5 consecutive posessions in the nba, its not "unrealistic". when he drives to the hole on 6 straight trips, its not "unrealistic".

Huh? to the entire first part of your post....

and to your Final Thought, how many times has Kobe in his entire career Took 6 3 pointers consecutively????

[Krodis]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

The notion that off-ball defense is "letting the computer play defense for you" is absurd. At all times the computer is playing defense for four of your players. The ball-handler isn't always where the action is. Playing off-ball defense doesn't mean you're "hiding" from the action. If Ray Allen is running off screens and I want to try to guard that, am I "letting the computer play for me".

What if the ball-handler is a non-threat offensively (say, Derek Fisher). You really think Derek Fisher standing at the top of the key is "where the action is" when you have Kobe and Pau trying to create space and get the ball in advantageous spots on the court? Really?

[TUSS11]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

The notion that off-ball defense is "letting the computer play defense for you" is absurd. At all times the computer is playing defense for four of your players. The ball-handler isn't always where the action is. Playing off-ball defense doesn't mean you're "hiding" from the action. If Ray Allen is running off screens and I want to try to guard that, am I "letting the computer play for me".

What if the ball-handler is a non-threat offensively (say, Derek Fisher). You really think Derek Fisher standing at the top of the key is "where the action is" when you have Kobe and Pau trying to create space and get the ball in advantageous spots on the court? Really?

Good point. Considering the fact that AI post defenders don't fight for space, sometimes it's necessary to do it yourself.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

The notion that off-ball defense is "letting the computer play defense for you" is absurd. At all times the computer is playing defense for four of your players. The ball-handler isn't always where the action is. Playing off-ball defense doesn't mean you're "hiding" from the action. If Ray Allen is running off screens and I want to try to guard that, am I "letting the computer play for me".

What if the ball-handler is a non-threat offensively (say, Derek Fisher). You really think Derek Fisher standing at the top of the key is "where the action is" when you have Kobe and Pau trying to create space and get the ball in advantageous spots on the court? Really?

Dang it ... I haven't thought of it this way..... wrong!! if D Fish isn't a threat lag off of him, anticipate the pass to the post, or to Kobe... or shade to the spot that the screen is going to.... GOOD GOD!!!!

VOILA you're still on ball!

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

i used to think like you

you'd do well to read this article

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playi...in-part-1.html

Read it, it's an excellent read but it does not apply for a sim game. The idea of Sim is to try to get as close of an actual representation of the (insert Sport).

The idea is to play to win, but don't do anything to win.

[ffpp]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Read it, it's an excellent read but it does not apply for a sim game. The idea of Sim is to try to get as close of an actual representation of the (insert Sport).

The idea is to play to win, but don't do anything to win.

See, and because the AI isn't doing a good enough job to play realistic defense off the ball, you have to help it out sometimes