Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Help me get this clear ... your poll is better than mine because as vague as it is it is convenient to your argument ... my poll, on the contrary, it is not valide because while being more precise, it does not convenient you ?

Boy, you are really, really not contributing to your cause at all ... this has gotten to the point of having an argument for the sake of you not recognizing that you are wrong.

people thought the world was flat at a point in this planets history.... what the people think means nothing. I only show the polls #'s to show you the amount of cheesers there are even on this site. The fact that you throw your hat in with the cheesers is telling, and that should tell you one thing.....

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Wow.

Are you using a forum poll to try and prove something???

You called me out as a cheeser...I said let the people decide who is cheesy, we get feedback votes after each game, a pretty standard way of telling who is a cheeser and who is legit...who's e-c@ck is bigger. And this is what you come up with?...some forum poll about how people choose to play? What does that even mean?

So...stop posting unrelated polls and just admit your feedback. BTW when I looked, it said you had zero games played, 100% feedback off of only 2 votes. Please tell me that isn't right....because if you've been arguing this vehemently over something you have zero experience with, I'm going to be upset with myself for wasting time.

BTW, my GT is Meinders 415 if you want to check how people have rated me....

Let me check for a second the topic of this thread ... Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is) ... humm!? ... am I off topic ? ... does the poll that I brought up is off topic ? ... let me check the topic of such poll ... is off ball D cheese ? ... humm!? very, very unrelated, as opposed to that brought by your comrade the OP ... sarcasm, kauf, kauf ...

Having stablished that, I argue about calling propper off ball d cheese and unsim ... which is an offensive prejudice ...

On the other hand, I wasnt the one who came up with the voting thing, you were ... as if playing more than 500 games online could be an accomplishment ... and as if even having such feedback from the community ment something strictly related to the topic ... which is ... Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is) ... and which states ... that playing off ball d is cheesing ... which I not agree as it depends on how you do it.

P.D.
Only 2 ranked games indeed, a couple more of unranked, a couple of games of half a dozen unfinished online seasons and no less than a thousand of offline quick games, tournaments and playoffs series ... Back in 2k8 time when I used to use lobbys (which I dont support anymore and have stated my reasons on the corresponding threads) and play ranked games (if I remebered right, 300 or so), I always had around 85 to 90% of good feedback and that was even by barring a 15% of DNF% mostly due to the fact that I live in a third world country were energy blackouts happen more than often they are just commum) and despite having a winning rating around 50%.

If now you are going to take the approach of deviating the purpose of this thread into a macho man reputation contest ... I will not engage you on such terrain, but then again, be aware that if we had, you would have found that to be not an easy contest at all.

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Fairness ? Going by your own statements (and partially mine too), playing off ball d gets your defense into scramble and chaos mode, therefor easily and effectivelly countering it ... and you are asking about fairness ?

Absolutely correct....only problem is YOU want to label that easy and effective counter as "cheese".

I find all your little "assumptions" about the way I play pretty entertaining. I understand the way the game works, I've played it a lot....and I can see the cause and effect of the way people play a little differently after debating this very topic for close to a decade. But beyond everything else, I play this game for enjoyment, and I play my way, which has been sim in every single game I play. I don't play in leagues, I rarely play friends, I almost exclusively play ranked games....and I can honestly say there's not a single game I would not endorse as a 100% sim game.

There is not a single shot chart that would be unlike a shot chart you find on espn.com. There is not a single time that I have not guarded my opponent the entire game. EVER. Regardless of some of the unbelievable trash I have faced, my game is the same.

I take what the defense gives me, but all too often to my own downfall add unnecessary tweaks to fill my "sim" needs. That's not the smart basketball play....and I recognize that, so to condemn somebody for making the smart basketball play as being unsim is ludicrous. And for it to come from the person who's defense caused it gives me a logic headache.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

people thought the world was flat at a point in this planets history.... what the people think means nothing. I only show the polls #'s to show you the amount of cheesers there are even on this site. The fact that you throw your hat in with the cheesers is telling, and that should tell you one thing.....

You surelly know how to backpedal ... thus you shouldnt have been in that scenario on the first place ... not only did you brought an unrelated vague poll but you did relay on it and when confronted, just demenished your own approach ... not a true "sim" spirit my friend ... just let Flip do the work, at least he is somewhat consistent within his inconsistency.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Absolutely correct....only problem is YOU want to label that easy and effective counter as "cheese".

I find all your little "assumptions" about the way I play pretty entertaining. I understand the way the game works, I've played it a lot....and I can see the cause and effect of the way people play a little differently after debating this very topic for close to a decade. But beyond everything else, I play this game for enjoyment, and I play my way, which has been sim in every single game I play. I don't play in leagues, I rarely play friends, I almost exclusively play ranked games....and I can honestly say there's not a single game I would not endorse as a 100% sim game.

There is not a single shot chart that would be unlike a shot chart you find on espn.com. There is not a single time that I have not guarded my opponent the entire game. EVER. Regardless of some of the unbelievable trash I have faced, my game is the same.

I take what the defense gives me, but all too often to my own downfall add unnecessary tweaks to fill my "sim" needs. That's not the smart basketball play....and I recognize that, so to condemn somebody for making the smart basketball play as being unsim is ludicrous. And for it to come from the person who's defense caused it gives me a logic headache.

Well this is the first post were I feel we might not be in 2 different worlds (I do take what the defense give me but to an extend, a smaller one may I say) ... what you describe about you is what I (and others) think about me and my playstyle ... I am as sim as they come ... thus I do play offball D from time to time but always in the propper way (not looking for an advantage but to lessen a disadvantage) ... paradigmas often cause headaches when broken and new ones are created.

Propper offball D: is sim.

P.D.
Time to get some sleep, hopefully this wont continue later on.

[drewbs]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

people thought the world was flat at a point in this planets history.... what the people think means nothing. I only show the polls #'s to show you how many I think are cheesers even on this site. The fact that you throw your hat in with the cheesers is telling, and that should tell you one thing.....

FTFY.

Please do not take your own word as gospel. It's really annoying.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Wow.

Are you using a forum poll to try and prove something???

You called me out as a cheeser...I said let the people decide who is cheesy, we get feedback votes after each game, a pretty standard way of telling who is a cheeser and who is legit...who's e-c@ck is bigger. And this is what you come up with?...some forum poll about how people choose to play? What does that even mean?

So...stop posting unrelated polls and just admit your feedback. BTW when I looked, it said you had zero games played, 100% feedback off of only 2 votes. Please tell me that isn't right....because if you've been arguing this vehemently over something you have zero experience with, I'm going to be upset with myself for wasting time.

BTW, my GT is Meinders 415 if you want to check how people have rated me....

In an earlier post you asked ffaaac if he wanted to take a poll? He said no need to yet you still insisted so he posted it. The poll says it all. Everyone in this thread minus you and new moon think off ball D is ok. The poll shows it as well. So you can deny all you want but as Czar puts it OS is the sim nation and you my friend are the minority in this arguement. You put up a fight but OS has spoken. As face said, the 3rd option is the right one. Of course there are people out there who abuse the right way to play off ball in maintaining SIM style. That is not us or what we are arguing however. You are assuming we are 1 of those guys who are not guarding there man but really just playing a man 2 man with zone principles and cheating over while not guarding a man and just going for steals and traps. That is not us nor the point. Just because we play off ball d occassionaly does not make us "cheese".

Try to view another point besides your own. If 80-90% of OS disagree with you then maybe your view is a bit old school and you need to rethink things??? Unless you think 80-90% of OS is unsim???

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

FTFY.

Please do not take your own word as gospel. It's really annoying.

LOL! WORD!

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

In an earlier post you asked ffaaac if he wanted to take a poll? He said no need to yet you still insisted so he posted it. The poll says it all. Everyone in this thread minus you and new moon think off ball D is ok. The poll shows it as well. So you can deny all you want but as Czar puts it OS is the sim nation and you my friend are the minority in this arguement. You put up a fight but OS has spoken. As face said, the 3rd option is the right one. Of course there are people out there who abuse the right way to play off ball in maintaining SIM style. That is not us or what we are arguing however. You are assuming we are 1 of those guys who are not guarding there man but really just playing a man 2 man with zone principles and cheating over while not guarding a man and just going for steals and traps. That is not us nor the point. Just because we play off ball d occassionaly does not make us "cheese".

Try to view another point besides your own. If 80-90% of OS disagree with you then maybe your view is a bit old school and you need to rethink things??? Unless you think 80-90% of OS is unsim???

I did not ask for a poll...I asked what his opponents' thought of how he played...his feedback, because he called me a cheeser.

His hand-picked opponents from ranked games in lobbies rated him at 85-90....while the random ranked opponents that I have played have rated my style higher (92%) despite winning more often and not being able to weed out the horrible opponents. That was my point...not a vague forum poll.

First off, do I think off the ball defense is cheese and off the ball players are cheesers? I'll say it again...nope. Are they sim...definitely not. And if they want to hold the offense to some sim standard while they let the CPU guard the only human controlled player on the court....they are short-sighted in doing so.

You want to say you're not taking advantage of anything by playing off the ball? That you're keeping the defender in the proper position...then why exactly do you feel the need to control them? The CPU knows the proper position to be in when guarding another CPU player 99% of the time....and if you're not seeing that, it's because you have moved them out of position on your own. So, if they do a good job defending the CPU guys...why is it you wouldn't be checking the one and only guy they can't check very well? Every thing I've ever heard is nothing but an excuse....that such and such move will make it ineffective to play on the ball. Please tell me the move or play that causes you to forego defending your opponent for choosing instead to defend a AI bot? After years of successfully playing on the ball...I'll tell you it's untrue and explain why.

Do I think most of OS is cheesers? Nope....but do I feel the general idea of sim/cheese has been perverted by people who view winning a game over learning the game. And regardless wherever you go, OS included...an internet forum is far from being anything you gleam can meaningful information from. The only reason you would ever choose to not defend your matchup is because you feel you get some advantage from it...or because you want to hide your disadvantage of not being a good defender. So...which is it? What advantage do you gain, or are you simply not good at staying in front of your opponent?

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

FTFY.

Please do not take your own word as gospel. It's really annoying.

We've already been through this..... what's annoying is you not even attempting to comprehend what has been written...by me, or anyone else for that matter. Let me help you out. That Poll had 3 options, yep 3. One of the options were is playing off ball D Cheese; 50% said no. The last Option was is playing off ball d cheese depending on how you play it and 38% said no. Now that poll is most enlightening because it shows that even here on OS that the major majority think you can do anything on defense and still be considered Sim. IE: running around off ball trying for steals, camping the lane, playing Run away Defense.... and all the other cheese moves that you can do defensively....

So as you see they aren't my words.... they are the members here at OS.

P.S. Please think before you write, or just re-read what you wrote and try to comprehend what you are writing to before you hit submit....K..... thanks

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

In an earlier post you asked ffaaac if he wanted to take a poll? He said no need to yet you still insisted so he posted it. The poll says it all. Everyone in this thread minus you and new moon think off ball D is ok. The poll shows it as well. So you can deny all you want but as Czar puts it OS is the sim nation and you my friend are the minority in this arguement. You put up a fight but OS has spoken. As face said, the 3rd option is the right one. Of course there are people out there who abuse the right way to play off ball in maintaining SIM style. That is not us or what we are arguing however. You are assuming we are 1 of those guys who are not guarding there man but really just playing a man 2 man with zone principles and cheating over while not guarding a man and just going for steals and traps. That is not us nor the point. Just because we play off ball d occassionaly does not make us "cheese".

Try to view another point besides your own. If 80-90% of OS disagree with you then maybe your view is a bit old school and you need to rethink things??? Unless you think 80-90% of OS is unsim???

This lack of comprehension is a failure of public schools I think.... lets break down your post...... you haven't given me one scenario that can't be guarded on ball, you can shade, Double, play passing lanes, Sag off to help on quick posts.... you name it all while playing ON-Ball... however you disregard all those and say I don't want to.... but you'd rather guard an AI controlled bot....Hmmmm.

I also love how you say well I occasionally play Off ball....Occasionally lol I'd love to know the occasion you play on ball, and why you find the need to do it at all.... give me a break.

I do love how you brought in Da C'zar as some sort of saying to hitch your cheese defense to. There is one telling thing in all his videos.... yep you guessed it, he's playing On ball Defense.... In fact in order to play in OS leagues....you have to , you guessed it play on ball defense.... Hmmmmm... I wonder why that is....

I'll tell you the difference between me and FLips.... i'm more black and white...as for as you put it 80, 90% on OS thinks Off ball is ok.... this is what I say if you ain't 100% Sim , you're all CHeese in my book

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

First off, do I think off the ball defense is cheese and off the ball players are cheesers? I'll say it again...nope. Are they sim...definitely not. And if they want to hold the offense to some sim standard while they let the CPU guard the only human controlled player on the court....they are short-sighted in doing so.

You want to say you're not taking advantage of anything by playing off the ball? That you're keeping the defender in the proper position...then why exactly do you feel the need to control them?

To be ready for help. See the ball and see my man "having my pistols out". It;s not about taking advantage. Maybe it's me taking away Jordan or Kobe and making you beat me with your role players. Maybe it's not giving up easy lay in's. I know your response is well stop the ball yourself. I play both ways and switch as the game go's on,. I don't just play 100% on ball or off ball. The point is it's still SIM as long as you are playing the game as a coach or strategist to take something away and make the offense think and beat you 5 on 5 not 1 on 1 or 2 on 2. I understand the people you are referring to but we are not those people. Playing JUST on ball D means i might as well play nba jam or elite or take it to the streets for 1 on 1. I want to play basketball and all that comes with it and strategy is a BIG part of that. The in game strategies don't cut it.

I like to play with my best team defender period. Whether thats Rodman, Hakeem, Jordan, raja bell, artest or whoever thats who I want to play with. Quick ex. If I am guarding the ball and the player is better than me and killing me 1 on 1 do you suggest I keep playing like that? It was so easy to burn people very easily any time you wanted in past years so really it depends on the game, but again in real life a coach might sub someone else in or change his strategy. Maybe he brings help to take that offensive player out of the game? So many things come into play here. If the offensive player passes the ball 20times then I got to switch every time he passes to guard the ball? Thats just stupid! I'd rather rotate my defender, take 1 pass away when necessary by denying my player the ball and be ready to help on drives. How can you say that isn't SIM! I'm playing my man and the ball?!

The CPU knows the proper position to be in when guarding another CPU player 99% of the time....and if you're not seeing that, it's because you have moved them out of

NO it doesn't! Maybe this year, but not in years past, but that isn't why I play some off ball anyways... see above...

position on your own. So, if they do a good job defending the CPU guys...why is it you wouldn't be checking the one and only guy they can't check very well? Every thing I've ever heard is nothing but an excuse....that such and such move will make it ineffective to play on the ball. Please tell me the move or play that causes you to forego defending your opponent for choosing instead to defend a AI bot? After years of successfully playing on the ball...I'll tell you it's untrue and explain why.

Again, I like to play with best defender. I am a basketball coach for a living and run my own AAU club. I know basketball and the in's and out's of the game. My specialty is defense. I teach kids to always deny 1 pass away and be in help when 2 passes away. Alaways see the ball and your man. Always be ready to help! We play defense as a team of 5 not 1 on 1. We play as a tight FIST not 5 individuals! This is very common! Watch Purdue's defense and you will see how I coach defense. The Blazers play an NBA style of this defense as well. So, i ask again what is wrong with me playing with Ron artest off ball if I am playing my man and reacting to wherethe ball is in relation to my man? When my man is 1 pass away I deny, if my man gets the ball I "D" him up, if the ball is rotated 2 passes away I then prepare for help on a drive or pick n roll just like he would or should do in REAL basketball which IS SIM isn't it?!

Do I think most of OS is cheesers? Nope....but do I feel the general idea of sim/cheese has been perverted by people who view winning a game over learning the game. And regardless wherever you go, OS included...an internet forum is far from being anything you gleam can meaningful information from. The only reason you would ever choose to not defend your matchup is because you feel you get some advantage from it...or because you want to hide your disadvantage of not being a good defender. So...which is it? What advantage do you gain, or are you simply not good at staying in front of your opponent?

It's making you make a decision. It's strategy is all. Again, I play both and never 100% either way but I don't find off ball unsim but more very SIM! I welcome the challenge and the inner chess match within the game! That to me is the best part of a league full of 30 guys. You have 30 guys with 30 different styles to find out who is the best! If you play to your rule of guard ball all you have are 30 clones of yourself which is dumb and not even realistic to the real NBA with different coaches and strategies that they have on a night to night basis. If every team played the smae then why would they practice and have pre game meetings and watch film on upcoming teams?

Also, you can reverse your last statements as well. You can say well why don't you adjust? why can't you not play against a guy who makes you have to think and react to what he does when not guarding the ball? If it was me, i might run some pick n pops or run some specific plays to get my player a open to get a shot off outside and away from your player. To me it just sounds like you want to play 1 on 1 and have a wide open lane to dunk all day. Is that SIM? I say NOOOO!!!

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

This lack of comprehension is a failure of public schools I think.... lets break down your post...... you haven't given me one scenario that can't be guarded on ball, you can shade, Double, play passing lanes, Sag off to help on quick posts.... you name it all while playing ON-Ball... however you disregard all those and say I don't want to.... but you'd rather guard an AI controlled bot....Hmmmm.

I also love how you say well I occasionally play Off ball....Occasionally lol I'd love to know the occasion you play on ball, and why you find the need to do it at all.... give me a break.

I do love how you brought in Da C'zar as some sort of saying to hitch your cheese defense to. There is one telling thing in all his videos.... yep you guessed it, he's playing On ball Defense.... In fact in order to play in OS leagues....you have to , you guessed it play on ball defense.... Hmmmmm... I wonder why that is....

I'll tell you the difference between me and FLips.... i'm more black and white...as for as you put it 80, 90% on OS thinks Off ball is ok.... this is what I say if you ain't 100% Sim , you're all CHeese in my book

read response above to flip... answers all your accusations against saying I'm cheese and deflecting your cheese to me... Were on to you moony!

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

We've already been through this..... what's annoying is you not even attempting to comprehend what has been written...by me, or anyone else for that matter. Let me help you out. That Poll had 3 options, yep 3. One of the options were is playing off ball D Cheese; 50% said no. The last Option was is playing off ball d cheese depending on how you play it and 38% said no. Now that poll is most enlightening because it shows that even here on OS that the major majority think you can do anything on defense and still be considered Sim. IE: running around off ball trying for steals, camping the lane, playing Run away Defense.... and all the other cheese moves that you can do defensively....

That means 88% of people here and you being the other 12% see off ball defense as OK! All the 3rd option says is that there is definitely a fine line to off ball D. I think us SIM playerswho play off ball D some of the time agreethat there are off ball defenders who don't play SIM. Those guys run around like chickens with there head cut off and have no intention of guarding there man but just the ball. That is not SIM and i agree with you on that! I on the other hand and I believe most SIM off ball defendersdo play there man and the ball and only help when needed and don't use it as an exploit but rather a strategy to keep you thinking. This is the majority of people here on OS who agree with this. So, no that didn't mean we think "we can do anything on defense" as far as 3rd answer, this means we say off ball D can be SIM a if played properly, but unfortunately not all people do. Of course you of all people decide to twist that poll around to your view and to say that 88% of OS doesn't have a clue of to what SIM is?! C'mon man! Maybe it's you who doesn't have a clue and 88% of OS doesn't understand your rules in regards to this on ball defense rule.

Agree to disagree? To each his own man!

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Not much time to respond here....but just a quick question:

If your strategy on defense is to just pick your best rated defender, how is that any different than a guy shooting every shot with his best player rated player.

Absolutely no difference....other than you'd be quick to call the guy who shot everytime with Kobe a cheeser.