Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

[astking]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

This action has to be inate, without even having to call a play.... That's the only way to keep these cheesers in check

now you just said it. but heres the deal. i'm not sure if this is even the fault of 2k devs. personally i think it has to do with the online connection. if someone is intentionally lag glitching which cheesers do. or just has a laggy connection. it slows the time the information is sent from your console to 2k servers.

for example. lets say some guy is in the passing lanes all day long. and if you were playing offline vs a friend or the cpu. your cpu off ball offensive player would normall make a cut backdoor within 2 seconds of that defender playing the lane.

well that same 2 second signal is being sent to 2ks servers. and now depennding on a slow connection or not. it could cause a slight delay in information to the servers. so now its taking 4 seconds for the cut to happen.

or even worse i've seen where the cpu controlled offensive players do not run their proper routes when online vs a person with a laggy connection. its like because that info isn't going to and fro fast enough. its like info is left out. and that stops the ai from working properly. i've played guys where i was tearing them apart with my lakers(not kobe, but the rest of the team) using the triangle offense. cause everyone is moving properly. then i see the game getting laggy. no fault of the other player. just is. and now my guys are no longer cutting like they are supposed to. in addition bounce passes are not on time. therefore getting stolen or poked away. so everything i do is now telegraphed because its so delayed.

the only way u stop that all game is for both parties to pay attention to when this happens. and to ease up on passing lane defense if it starts getting way to easy to pick a guy off all of a sudden. its the same way i play the inbounds. do i full court trap/press from time to time? sure. but we're talking 4 plays in a row then turn it back off. i might get 2 steals in a row. then i'm backing off. cause thats real life. this isn't college hoops and i know the fatigue isn't setup correctly to make my guys tire quickly when they start pressing to much. its one of those things you have to police yourself on to be sim. otherwise you'll find yourself cheesing someone and not even know it.

[astking]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

The notion that off-ball defense is "letting the computer play defense for you" is absurd. At all times the computer is playing defense for four of your players. The ball-handler isn't always where the action is. Playing off-ball defense doesn't mean you're "hiding" from the action. If Ray Allen is running off screens and I want to try to guard that, am I "letting the computer play for me".

What if the ball-handler is a non-threat offensively (say, Derek Fisher). You really think Derek Fisher standing at the top of the key is "where the action is" when you have Kobe and Pau trying to create space and get the ball in advantageous spots on the court? Really?

excellent point. and i play off ball vs lebron abusers. i will sit ron in his chest so he cant get the ball. or walk in the passing lane so to force them to use other cavs to play hoop.

i do it to kobe abusers also.

but it all depends. if i have the lakers and i have d.fish walking it up and i'm at the top of the key. and i catch you playing off helping on kobe. fine. i'm going to pop you in the eye for that open 3. or i will keep driving until another person helps. and your defense is in scramble mode. pau, ron, bynum/lo someone will be open other then fisher once i do this. so you will be at my mercy. but i still agree with your point. its not always cheese ball to play off ball if you are actually running around with a dead eye shooter. i mean if the c's are down 2, and i'm the cavs. i will leave rondo alone and front ray allen. it wont be him beating me from 3. go ahead and take the 3 rondo.

the offball defenders i think they are mad at. are those that are so afraid of playing the ball. to the point where no matter who you pass it to. they will switch off the ball defender. put it this way. when i find out i have a paint guarder. i start dumping the ball into the paint to force the guy to play on ball de. you know what these guys do? lol they will speed switch off that defender onto another off the ball defender. horrible. i use to talk to guys in the 2k8 forums about this all the time. u guys might remember. i had a copy and pasted text that i would send out periodically. saying " playing off ball defense = cpu defense= human vs cpu=might as well play offline."

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

now you just said it. but heres the deal. i'm not sure if this is even the fault of 2k devs. personally i think it has to do with the online connection. if someone is intentionally lag glitching which cheesers do. or just has a laggy connection. it slows the time the information is sent from your console to 2k servers.

for example. lets say some guy is in the passing lanes all day long. and if you were playing offline vs a friend or the cpu. your cpu off ball offensive player would normall make a cut backdoor within 2 seconds of that defender playing the lane.

well that same 2 second signal is being sent to 2ks servers. and now depennding on a slow connection or not. it could cause a slight delay in information to the servers. so now its taking 4 seconds for the cut to happen.

or even worse i've seen where the cpu controlled offensive players do not run their proper routes when online vs a person with a laggy connection. its like because that info isn't going to and fro fast enough. its like info is left out. and that stops the ai from working properly. i've played guys where i was tearing them apart with my lakers(not kobe, but the rest of the team) using the triangle offense. cause everyone is moving properly. then i see the game getting laggy. no fault of the other player. just is. and now my guys are no longer cutting like they are supposed to. in addition bounce passes are not on time. therefore getting stolen or poked away. so everything i do is now telegraphed because its so delayed.

the only way u stop that all game is for both parties to pay attention to when this happens. and to ease up on passing lane defense if it starts getting way to easy to pick a guy off all of a sudden. its the same way i play the inbounds. do i full court trap/press from time to time? sure. but we're talking 4 plays in a row then turn it back off. i might get 2 steals in a row. then i'm backing off. cause thats real life. this isn't college hoops and i know the fatigue isn't setup correctly to make my guys tire quickly when they start pressing to much. its one of those things you have to police yourself on to be sim. otherwise you'll find yourself cheesing someone and not even know it.

I don't argue what cheesers do.... They are cheesers and should be burned at the stake. The Sim bible is just that.... It's only about Sim. What those cheesers do in their games makes me no nevermind. But I do have a problem when someone claims to be sim and use the same cheese tactics that a Cheeser does. IE: Play off ball, and let the cpu do the work for them.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

excellent point. and i play off ball vs lebron abusers. i will sit ron in his chest so he cant get the ball. or walk in the passing lane so to force them to use other cavs to play hoop.

i do it to kobe abusers also.

Remember you are playing a Cheeser, do what you have to. No Sim player is going to play this way.... will they abuse with Kobe, sure. But they will do it by actually running plays, or using triple threat, or iso'ing, or Kobe being Kobe. Will they keep bumping through the lane until they can dunk on 3 guys....no. The same goes for Lebron for that matter.

but it all depends. if i have the lakers and i have d.fish walking it up and i'm at the top of the key. and i catch you playing off helping on kobe. fine. i'm going to pop you in the eye for that open 3. or i will keep driving until another person helps. and your defense is in scramble mode. pau, ron, bynum/lo someone will be open other then fisher once i do this. so you will be at my mercy. but i still agree with your point. its not always cheese ball to play off ball if you are actually running around with a dead eye shooter. i mean if the c's are down 2, and i'm the cavs. i will leave rondo alone and front ray allen. it wont be him beating me from 3. go ahead and take the 3 rondo.

the offball defenders i think they are mad at. are those that are so afraid of playing the ball. to the point where no matter who you pass it to. they will switch off the ball defender. put it this way. when i find out i have a paint guarder. i start dumping the ball into the paint to force the guy to play on ball de. you know what these guys do? lol they will speed switch off that defender onto another off the ball defender. horrible. i use to talk to guys in the 2k8 forums about this all the time. u guys might remember. i had a copy and pasted text that i would send out periodically. saying " playing off ball defense = cpu defense= human vs cpu=might as well play offline."

Nuff Said.

[ffpp]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

That is the thing that those 'super-simmers' like newmoon just don't seem to get into their heads.

When I say that I sometimes play off ball defense, I don't mean that I would switch the player as soon as my direct opponent gets the ball. As I already described a couple of pages before I mainly defend on the ball.
It is just sometimes necessary to make up for bad defense postitioning by AI teammates and therefore play shortly and temporary off the ball.

But some people are caught up so much in their idea of perfect sim play that they became just to narrowminded to understand that kind of argument.

[drewbs]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Dang it ... I haven't thought of it this way..... wrong!! if D Fish isn't a threat lag off of him, anticipate the pass to the post, or to Kobe... or shade to the spot that the screen is going to.... GOOD GOD!!!!

VOILA you're still on ball!

What if we don't want to shade him with the player who is guarding the ball? THAT is the problem.

Also, you said yourself that these rules were written in 2004. That was SIX years ago, which is an eternity in video game years, SIX years ago Allen Iverson was still on the cover of this game and Live was a better game than 2k. We're in 2010 now. The game didn't give you options like playing off the ball or running team specific players or realistic player tendencies so things like playing off the ball were not necessary other than for reasons of exploits. The game is different now. I really can't see how you seem to fail to understand this.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ....the Bible. (for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

See, and because the AI isn't doing a good enough job to play realistic defense off the ball, you have to help it out sometimes

The game gives you plenty of defensive options, some on the fly, and some pre game... quit making your excuses..... you have cheese defense just embrace it.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

That is the thing that those 'super-simmers' like newmoon just don't seem to get into their heads.

When I say that I sometimes play off ball defense, I don't mean that I would switch the player as soon as my direct opponent gets the ball. As I already described a couple of pages before I mainly defend on the ball.
It is just sometimes necessary to make up for bad defense postitioning by AI teammates and therefore play shortly and temporary off the ball.

But some people are caught up so much in their idea of perfect sim play that they became just to narrowminded to understand that kind of argument.

You continue to act like the computer is a complete idiot.... It's not, Like I have said before the game gives you options on defense. use them.
When you're playing a Sim player like myself, i'm not going to abuse any portion of the game, so the things you have to worry about IE: programming flaws are a moot point.

For Example I Use the Wizards every game, that means i'm going to play to my teams strengths. So I would never take my center, and play him like Early Shaq even if I could, even if the game allowed me to. Because that would be unrealistic.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

What if we don't want to shade him with the player who is guarding the ball? THAT is the problem.

Then Don't no one is forcing you to do anything.... but don't come here and say hey I'm sim, I let the cpu play defense for me so I can be a terror all over the court with the off man....which Always puts the human controlled player at a disadvantage, and allows you to play 2 Vs 1 at every point of the game.

Also, you said yourself that these rules were written in 2004. That was SIX years ago, which is an eternity in video game years, SIX years ago Allen Iverson was still on the cover of this game and Live was a better game than 2k. We're in 2010 now. The game didn't give you options like playing off the ball or running team specific players or realistic player tendencies so things like playing off the ball were not necessary other than for reasons of exploits. The game is different now. I really can't see how you seem to fail to understand this.

no I understand that there were cheesers then, and there are cheesers now.... what you fail to understand is the fact that people are still cheesing, when clearly the goal of the developers is to give you a true representation of the NBA in a head to Head match up. Now when you play the cpu, do what you want, but when you sign up online you do so in order to play against a human opponent. Keyword HUMAN....

[ffpp]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

You continue to act like the computer is a complete idiot.... It's not, Like I have said before the game gives you options on defense. use them.
When you're playing a Sim player like myself, i'm not going to abuse any portion of the game, so the things you have to worry about IE: programming flaws are a moot point.

For Example I Use the Wizards every game, that means i'm going to play to my teams strengths. So I would never take my center, and play him like Early Shaq even if I could, even if the game allowed me to. Because that would be unrealistic.

Nobody said that the AI is stupid but you can't say that it is perfect either. I'm talking about 2k9 btw and many people can tell you that it has flaws in defensive movement.

Also, who said something about abusing players ? I don't do funny stuff when I control Greg Oden. Just typical Greg Oden stuff.
I think that is your problem. Somebody says off ball D and you start to imagine Centers or just great defenders roaming the whole defensive side of the court and using game glitches or whatever. That's not what I'm talking about though.

[nbaman1]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I'm really hoping that 2k11 forces you to play sim and punishes you for not playing sim

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Wow...I need to check these forums a little more often. 27 pages? Part of me wants to read just to catch up....but I'm pretty sure I could guess what most the arguement is about.

Here's hoping this year they've finally solved this problem with Total Control Passing. I can't get too excited. I was fooled a couple years back when DPC let you take complete control over any player, but then they never added it online.

The really ironic part is my guess this year will have the most complaints about cheese ever. The vast majority of players have learned to deal with what they call cheese by letting the CPU guard the ballhandler, while they provide backup. With Total Control Passing, that won't be possible...either off the ball or on the ball, the user controlled defender will be responsible for guarding the other user. Everybody's bad defensive habits combined with Total Control Passing will make this years game a layup drill for skilled users.

How soon after the game comes out will we see the first complaint that Total Control Passing is cheese? My guess it will be October 5th, maybe the 6th...and it will undoubtedly come from a camper.

[Nines]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

This argument is neither here nor there. Everyone pays the same money for their copy of the game, so they have a right to play however the hell they want to play. While I personally prefer to replicate what I see on TV, who am I to force my 'SIM' (that expression is so overused) play-style on someone else?

Some people just don't define what you call 'SIM' as fun. They want to put up 50 eery game with LeBron. Why is it so hard to understand that different play-styles appeal to different people?

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Wow...I need to check these forums a little more often. 27 pages? Part of me wants to read just to catch up....but I'm pretty sure I could guess what most the arguement is about.

Here's hoping this year they've finally solved this problem with Total Control Passing. I can't get too excited. I was fooled a couple years back when DPC let you take complete control over any player, but then they never added it online.

The really ironic part is my guess this year will have the most complaints about cheese ever. The vast majority of players have learned to deal with what they call cheese by letting the CPU guard the ballhandler, while they provide backup. With Total Control Passing, that won't be possible...either off the ball or on the ball, the user controlled defender will be responsible for guarding the other user. Everybody's bad defensive habits combined with Total Control Passing will make this years game a layup drill for skilled users.

How soon after the game comes out will we see the first complaint that Total Control Passing is cheese? My guess it will be October 5th, maybe the 6th...and it will undoubtedly come from a camper.

The architect. I post this "Sim" bible every iteration of NBA2k that I think is going to be good.

It's pretty discouraging how hard these guys try to defend their cheese. Six years and counting, and from the opposition it seems like as though we have a long way to go.

I appreciate the Developers trying to give us a solution to combat the off ball cheesers, however that isn't the only problem. It's still a cheap way to play, and breaks the game down to something that isn't a fun way to play

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

This argument is neither here nor there. Everyone pays the same money for their copy of the game, so they have a right to play however the hell they want to play. While I personally prefer to replicate what I see on TV, who am I to force my 'SIM' (that expression is so overused) play-style on someone else?

Some people just don't define what you call 'SIM' as fun. They want to put up 50 eery game with LeBron. Why is it so hard to understand that different play-styles appeal to different people?

this has never been in question.... The Sim bible point is there to be a written rule of what is considered "SIM". If I go see the movie Die hard, and they replace it with Beaches... I'm going to say something. same goes for this game here. If I ask for a sim game, and get the equilvalent of a melted bowl of Velveeta i'm going to have some problems.

Now if to Cheese heads want to have at it, more power to them.