Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

[ffpp]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

It's pretty discouraging how hard these guys try to defend their cheese.

You maybe wouldn't be so discouraged if you would just get what most people tried to tell you in this thread.
I for one tried to explain what I mean by off ball D and you don't seem to even get what I'm saying, just responding with *Cheeeese*. No wonder you're discouraged.

My goal when playing is neither to run away from competition nor to win by all means but to rather make the match look and feel as realistic and rewarding as possible.
And just because you call your rules a 'bible' doesn't mean that their is no arguing the truth in them.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

You maybe wouldn't be so discouraged if you would just get what most people tried to tell you in this thread.
I for one tried to explain what I mean by off ball D and you don't seem to even get what I'm saying, just responding with *Cheeeese*. No wonder you're discouraged.

My goal when playing is neither to run away from competition nor to win by all means but to rather make the match look and feel as realistic and rewarding as possible.
And just because you call your rules a 'bible' doesn't mean that their is no arguing the truth in them.

I do understand, and I have explained time and time again that the game gives you options on defense, as well as how to guard all while playing on ball.... Now until you come up with a play, that can't be defended while still playing on ball I'm saying "CHEESE".

What say you, to qoute Bill O'Reilly?

[ffpp]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

O.k. for example (all 2k9):
Did you never had the issue that defenders get tangled up in the middle that allows an opposing shooter to get open on the perimeter ? Not as a general rule but sometimes my AI teammates just don't react quick enough to make the necessary switch on D and get out to him.
It also occurs the other way around, on Pick and Roll defense, my teammates are sometimes too eager to make a switch that leaves them with very bad matchups on D.

Both can be prevented to some extend with the Help D coaching slider, but not in all cases. The defensive positioning gets out of whack and that would be a case where I shortly switch to an offball defender to set it right again.
On the PnR example: I usually keep defending the ball handler and try to fight through the screen or move under it but if my second PnR defender is positioned badly or seems likely to switch I will use him to stay in a good position to help cutting of the driving lane and/or denying the entry pass.

I know that you said the onball defender should just shade to the side of an open shooter to prevent a pass. But I think differently there. One thing is that it shouldn't be even necessary to do this if your teammates would have closed out on that shooter in time themselves, another thing is that shading to one side leaves the other side open for a drive. Against good driving ball handlers that would be leathal in many cases.

Such things don't even happen constantly that is why 95% on the time I don't even have to switch to an off ball defender. I don't make the game look less realistic, I'm not shying away from the competition and I'm certainly not looking for the AI to play defense for me. I'm just keeping an extra eye on things on the court like described above. I don't let this count as cheesing.

And for the record, I can only play offline because 2k9-PC doesn't come with the online feature. But I don't see how the described issues would change when playing online.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

O.k. for example (all 2k9):
Did you never had the issue that defenders get tangled up in the middle that allows an opposing shooter to get open on the perimeter ? Not as a general rule but sometimes my AI teammates just don't react quick enough to make the necessary switch on D and get out to him.
It also occurs the other way around, on Pick and Roll defense, my teammates are sometimes too eager to make a switch that leaves them with very bad matchups on D.

Both can be prevented to some extend with the Help D coaching slider, but not in all cases. The defensive positioning gets out of whack and that would be a case where I shortly switch to an offball defender to set it right again.
On the PnR example: I usually keep defending the ball handler and try to fight through the screen or move under it but if my second PnR defender is positioned badly or seems likely to switch I will use him to stay in a good position to help cutting of the driving lane and/or denying the entry pass.

I know that you said the onball defender should just shade to the side of an open shooter to prevent a pass. But I think differently there. One thing is that it shouldn't be even necessary to do this if your teammates would have closed out on that shooter in time themselves, another thing is that shading to one side leaves the other side open for a drive. Against good driving ball handlers that would be leathal in many cases.

Such things don't even happen constantly that is why 95% on the time I don't even have to switch to an off ball defender. I don't make the game look less realistic, I'm not shying away from the competition and I'm certainly not looking for the AI to play defense for me. I'm just keeping an extra eye on things on the court like described above. I don't let this count as cheesing.

And for the record, I can only play offline because 2k9-PC doesn't come with the online feature. But I don't see how the described issues would change when playing online.

All of those are examples are legitimate, and would be still be considered on ball. unless that when you switch men, you continue to defend away from the ball.

as for the shading, you are correct you will have to give up something in order to get something, but that is the nature of the beast. The shading doesn't happen the entire game, but only in the instance that you need it to. once again there is no real reason to play off ball vs a sim player

just due to the fact that you don't play online leaves you at a disadvantage in this argument, you don't know how far the rabbit hole goes.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

I'm really hoping that 2k11 forces you to play sim and punishes you for not playing sim

I agree at some point the developers are going to have to be held to a standard, but how do you do that without putting a governor on the controls? whatever formula they use for open shots, and contested shots may need to be tweaked... Most Cheesers don't know how, or why to take open shots because there horrible play is rewarded with points...

[drewbs]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

You maybe wouldn't be so discouraged if you would just get what most people tried to tell you in this thread.
I for one tried to explain what I mean by off ball D and you don't seem to even get what I'm saying, just responding with *Cheeeese*. No wonder you're discouraged.

My goal when playing is neither to run away from competition nor to win by all means but to rather make the match look and feel as realistic and rewarding as possible.
And just because you call your rules a 'bible' doesn't mean that their is no arguing the truth in them.

That's because the "bible" was written in 2004 for a six year old game, and apparently has nothing to do with reflecting how basketball is played in the NBA.

Luckily, most of us are smart enough to realize and understand that some of these things don't really apply anymore after SIX YEARS of changes in how the games play. But apparently, some of us either do not or cannot acknowledge this.

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Here's my updated 2K10 version...

Play on the ball defense. And if you don't, so be it...but don't pass judgement on how your opponent plays offense if you don't have the dignity to guard him yourself.

That covers it, I'm pretty sure. It's pretty funny how the guy 'admitted' to using Quick Post. He didn't quite understand, there was a version of 2K that had ZERO fighting for post position, so Quick Post simply parked your center directly under the hoop. Unstoppable. I think that was the same year that inbound from the sidelines were unstealable, so people would literally call timeouts to send a guy streaking to the hoop for the inbound pass and the easy two points.

They've done a good job in the last few getting rid of all of these issues. Well, minus one...and I'm pretty sure they've fixed it in 2K11. I believe that the overwhelming amount of complaints about paint abuse come from people who play risky defense who's priorities are to steal the ball or create turnovers. I don't mean to say all of the people who feel they have been cheesed are in the wrong....but I think a large percentage of them are.

Gauging just by what I've seen online, the people who play solid position defense are a rarity. So, if your defense is a risky one, yes sometimes you'll get a steal, but a good amount of time it will end badly, a dunk. I've seen way too many people claim the game gives up too many dunks, when in reality it's just the downside of their risky defense.

Too many people who let the CPU guard their opponent...then condemn their opponent for using 'cheese' to get past the CPU defender!?!? What the f is that...they choose to make their opponent play against the CPU...the point of besting the computer IS to use effective moves. Whoops, that's cheese in the eyes of this guy who decided to play a backup role to the CPU.

There is just way too much hypocrisy in a lot of the people who claim sim or cheese so I steer away from that most the time. After playing over 500 ranked games this year purely in man to man purely on the ball....the type of player I dislike the most is one who cries 'exploit' without ever considering their own defensive choices.

So were left with on the ball defense as the only flaw left. At it's core, it's the difference between the control on offense compared to defense. The ability to freely choose any player on defense, while the offense is limited to the ballhandler. This root problem has sprung up a ton of other exploits. Back in the day (ha), double teams were considered overpowered because of this...cherry picking is caused by this...and I believe the opinion of the lead pass being so vastly overpowered is because of this (indirectly).

I really did plan for this to be a two line post that read: play on the ball defense, that's it. Wow...offtrack. But the point is ALL of this will hopefully be made a completely moot by Total Control Passing.

Total Control Passing is my Holy Grail. But I've been fooled in the past by Dual Player Control in the one year the gave us equal control, but then forgot to put it online. So I guess we'll find out October 5th...but if it's as good as 2K10 with Total Control Passing....I'm pretty sure EVERY game just became a sim game.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

That's because the "bible" was written in 2004 for a six year old game, and apparently has nothing to do with reflecting how basketball is played in the NBA.

Luckily, most of us are smart enough to realize and understand that some of these things don't really apply anymore after SIX YEARS of changes in how the games play. But apparently, some of us either do not or cannot acknowledge this.

The fact that it was written six years ago is a testament to the bible.... The problems that plagued the game then, plague the game now. Except with a adjustments in your game, you can take a cheese enabled game, and turn it into a true representation of the NBA.

You see there is more to the game than Offense... I don't think you can get past the fact that when i'm controlling the ball, and you're guarding the computer, and the computer is guarding me, are we really playing each other.... that is the paradox in your Offball defense. I get online to play against a human opponent, if I wanted the cpu to guard me I would play association.

[newmoon]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Here's my updated 2K10 version...

Play on the ball defense. And if you don't, so be it...but don't pass judgement on how your opponent plays offense if you don't have the dignity to guard him yourself.

That covers it, I'm pretty sure. It's pretty funny how the guy 'admitted' to using Quick Post. He didn't quite understand, there was a version of 2K that had ZERO fighting for post position, so Quick Post simply parked your center directly under the hoop. Unstoppable. I think that was the same year that inbound from the sidelines were unstealable, so people would literally call timeouts to send a guy streaking to the hoop for the inbound pass and the easy two points.

They've done a good job in the last few getting rid of all of these issues. Well, minus one...and I'm pretty sure they've fixed it in 2K11. I believe that the overwhelming amount of complaints about paint abuse come from people who play risky defense who's priorities are to steal the ball or create turnovers. I don't mean to say all of the people who feel they have been cheesed are in the wrong....but I think a large percentage of them are.

Gauging just by what I've seen online, the people who play solid position defense are a rarity. So, if your defense is a risky one, yes sometimes you'll get a steal, but a good amount of time it will end badly, a dunk. I've seen way too many people claim the game gives up too many dunks, when in reality it's just the downside of their risky defense.

Too many people who let the CPU guard their opponent...then condemn their opponent for using 'cheese' to get past the CPU defender!?!? What the f is that...they choose to make their opponent play against the CPU...the point of besting the computer IS to use effective moves. Whoops, that's cheese in the eyes of this guy who decided to play a backup role to the CPU.

There is just way too much hypocrisy in a lot of the people who claim sim or cheese so I steer away from that most the time. After playing over 500 ranked games this year purely in man to man purely on the ball....the type of player I dislike the most is one who cries 'exploit' without ever considering their own defensive choices.

So were left with on the ball defense as the only flaw left. At it's core, it's the difference between the control on offense compared to defense. The ability to freely choose any player on defense, while the offense is limited to the ballhandler. This root problem has sprung up a ton of other exploits. Back in the day (ha), double teams were considered overpowered because of this...cherry picking is caused by this...and I believe the opinion of the lead pass being so vastly overpowered is because of this (indirectly).

I really did plan for this to be a two line post that read: play on the ball defense, that's it. Wow...offtrack. But the point is ALL of this will hopefully be made a completely moot by Total Control Passing.

Total Control Passing is my Holy Grail. But I've been fooled in the past by Dual Player Control in the one year the gave us equal control, but then forgot to put it online. So I guess we'll find out October 5th...but if it's as good as 2K10 with Total Control Passing....I'm pretty sure EVERY game just became a sim game.

Excellent Post. However I still label an Offball D-er as Cheese for the reasons that were mentioned. It has in the past put the offensive player in a 2 vs 1 situation. Like you said with total control passing maybe it will punish the defender finally. I still think if the guy is playing off ball, and taking chances the cpu has to inately go to the open spot. because the time it takes for me to call a play, or push buttons to get the guy in position the gambler has recovered on Defense.

I would also like to see online at least that if the defender is playing offball that the cpu be extremely easy to go around, making the on ball defender that much more mandatory. The Cpu defends well, which allows the off ball defender to cause havoc, as well as put up a good defensive front.

[ffpp]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

Again, only offline experience here but I would see it this way:
You're controlling the whole team and are playing against a whole team of 5 players. in Multiplayer each player has a full 5-member squad at his disposal and has to make the best of it.

I get it that it is annoying if your opponent always deliberately switches away from the ballhandler just because the team-AI is doing a better job on 1-1 defense than him.

But one example to the contrary might be this: When I run an offensive play against an AI-controlled team, I get somebody open for a shot or something and that is mostly because the opposing AI-team doesn't do a proper job to follow my play. I can run the same set play several times without the AI-team adjusting to it.
But against a human opponent I would think that he sees what I'm doing as soon as I start the same play over an over again and could adjust to that by taking some offball defender and get him into position to deny my play from getting completed. I would think that in some of the set plays there is just so much movement off the ball involved that you cannot always stop this efficiently by guarding just the ball handler.

What I'm describing here is a more strategic aspect of the game as opposed to the 1-1 aspect of two member of the opposing teams going against each other.
I would see some examples of this as legitmate offball defense, even in multiplayer. And not because I'm too lazy for onball D (I actually have fun doing it, not even using the lock-on D function) but just because it sometimes makes sense to do it.
Or aren't set plays a part of online gaming in NBA 2k ? This would make my example a moot point.

[drewbs]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

^Newmoon doesn't seem to understand anything beyond this concept of a 2 vs. 2 game. There is all this talk about running sets in "sim" gaming, but it makes me wonder if Newmoon just isos his way to the basket all the time and thus is concerned about this "2 vs 1" advantage.

If a team is running a play for Kobe to get open and hte defense is anticipating that Kobe is going to get open from this play, then WHY would anyone be controlling the man who is guarding Fisher while Kobe is beating his man off a curl every time down the floor? It just makes much more sense to be the guy guarding Kobe so that the defense can start shutting down that one particular play by playing that screen differently and thus make the offense adjust. Somehow this is "cheese," Kobe is the guy who is making the play here, not Derek Fisher, even though Fisher is the one with the ball. So why would we be forced to guard Fisher when we know what Kobe is going to do and can guard it? So that you can exploit this play over and over again? Apparently that's NOT "cheese" but adequately defending it IS. Hilarious.

The defense has the job to make the offense adjust. What is the point when you can't even do that?

[Flips House]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

^Newmoon doesn't seem to understand anything beyond this concept of a 2 vs. 2 game. There is all this talk about running sets in "sim" gaming, but it makes me wonder if Newmoon just isos his way to the basket all the time and thus is concerned about this "2 vs 1" advantage.

If a team is running a play for Kobe to get open and hte defense is anticipating that Kobe is going to get open from this play, then WHY would anyone be controlling the man who is guarding Fisher while Kobe is beating his man off a curl every time down the floor? It just makes much more sense to be the guy guarding Kobe so that the defense can start shutting down that one particular play by playing that screen differently and thus make the offense adjust. Somehow this is "cheese," Kobe is the guy who is making the play here, not Derek Fisher, even though Fisher is the one with the ball. So why would we be forced to guard Fisher when we know what Kobe is going to do and can guard it? So that you can exploit this play over and over again? Apparently that's NOT "cheese" but adequately defending it IS. Hilarious.

The defense has the job to make the offense adjust. What is the point when you can't even do that?

You're wrong on a lot of counts, but first consider this huge flaw in your logic first:

You claim that newmoon wants you to play on the ball so that he can exploit his opponent by using iso moves....

But then...

You claim off the ball doesn't work because your opponent can run sets on you and exploit passing it to the open man.

If you feel both of those are true, it isn't a matter of anybody exploiting anything...it's a matter of you just not being good at defense.

First off...if he wanted to iso, so be it. Accept the challenge and stop him. It's not nearly as hard as everyone seems to think. The problem is that everybody thinks it's impossible so instead of trying and improving...they switch off to another defender and NEVER learn to stop it.

Secondly...the idea that you must use off the ball defense to stop set plays is wrong. I understand the logic, and it's THEORETICALLY debatable, but it simply isn't true. After playing over 500 ranked games (purely man to man, on the ball) I have NEVER encountered a single player who ever exploited my CPU off the ball defenders by using plays. It doesn't happen...and if it does, it's less than 0.2%.

There's a couple reasons, but the main one is that plays don't work like you described...***n the same play over and over and see if you get the sam results. You won't.

What you're failing to understand is CPU Kobe coming off a screen is just that, CPU controlled. So when you think you know what's coming and set up to stop it, your opponent cannot take control over Kobe and react to how you're overplaying the set. Not possible until this year, at least.

Like I said earlier....I don't even care how you play. It doesn't matter. But if you want to play off the ball, you lose your right to complain how the offense beats you. You have forced their hand...the lead pass isn't overpowered, it just happens to be the one way you can beat your opponent when he's guarding a CPU player. Points in the paint aren't overpowered...it's just that everybody wants to either gamble for steals, but won't accept the downside of their risks. People claim their opponent will only score in the paint...but then they make that the only place their opponent can actually score against them because that's the only place they play user controlled defense.

You get what you put into the game. If you want to play exploitative defense, its going to look like your opponent is using exploits on defense. If you play straight up defense, the game will naturally become more sum, more realistic....whatever you want to call it.

[ffpp]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

After playing over 500 ranked games (purely man to man, on the ball) I have NEVER encountered a single player who ever exploited my CPU off the ball defenders by using plays. It doesn't happen...and if it does, it's less than 0.2%.

So was that because they tried to run plays and failed or did they just refuse to attempt any set plays ?
Because I can tell you that plays work on offense. Not all the time certainly and the game isn't as robotic as calling a play would always end up in the exact same results but it is a means of mixing up the offense.
Or are people online just randomly passing the ball around and hope for an opening before the shot clock runs out ?

[ffaacc03]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

...

What I'm describing here is a more strategic aspect of the game as opposed to the 1-1 aspect of two member of the opposing teams going against each other.
I would see some examples of this as legitmate offball defense, even in multiplayer. And not because I'm too lazy for onball D (I actually have fun doing it, not even using the lock-on D function) but just because it sometimes makes sense to do it...

Thats what I am saying ...

Complete off ball d, being running away of the ball handler all the time, parking on the paint and always looking to steal or block, despite the success rating of doing so, it is not a propper off ball D ... it is undoubtelly more towards cheesing ... but there are specific moments within a game, that by playing always on ball D, you just cant deal with them effectivelly ...

Yes, most of the time your d reacts to the decission that I (hum player) have taken or to the mistake I have commited, but more than often, be it for whatever the cause, your controlled AI defenders dont react as supposed to ... and this not only pertains to D, it also happens on O too, where players dont move at all or get to the same spot, leading to a static offense ...

Peopple, guess what, the game has flaws, the engine has flaws, the AI has flaws and even if none of this is true and even if it is a state of mind and subjective to how each one beliefs of what the AI should or should not do ... we should have the right to try to lessen the penalty of such flaws and mistakes or to conduct our whole D the way we want ... of course, all within the realm of rightness, fairness and sim ! ... as I have previously stated, I have played some on ball users who while doing so all game, are incredible "unsimmers", not cheesers, but abusers and extremists of some plays (defensible: yes, you can counter them and are not exploits ... but definitivelly unsim).

Propper off ball D is an integral part of sim and should not be prejudiced and catallogued as the contrary just by its sole nature but more by how is done, period.

[brianyost06]

Re: Sim style Gamplay ..... (Sim style for the guys who don't know what cheese is)

^^^Agreed exactly with the Bold message...