CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

[neovsmatrix]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

"Can't speak for anyone else, but for me I don't see everything in black and white as you're trying to paint it. There are areas of gray. VC and EA are operating on different levels - VC HAD to price their games at $20 this year just to get them noticed. SURELY you can admit that. If VC waited and released their games 1-2 months after EA released their counterparts, they would've gotten smoked in sales. And holding the games longer doesn't guarantee that the games will be bug-free. You need look no further than what NFL2k4 went through last year. I'm not trying to be a VC apologist. But geez, in one of your earlier posts you compared the bug issue to a Ferrari missing a car door, air conditioning, working power windows, etc. That's WAY too extreme."


You don't get it do you? People aren't asking for a game to be BUG-FREE. What people ARE asking is that MAJOR bugs be resolved and for the features that were advertised to WORK as advertised before releasing. It's bad practice for any company to release a title that has major bugs still in them, and incomplete features.

I don't care what their price point is, what they're going through in their company politics or whatever, releasing half-finished games doesn't help their rep, and they'll end up having to BEG their customers to buy their games if their rep's sufficiently destroyed. Then they did themselves in, and they have themselves to blame for it. There's a certain level of quality control you expect in a game, and IMHO, Visual Concepts isn't delivering on it.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

A post by Neo with nary a mention of Inside Drive? Color me impressed.

And yes, I do get it. Like I said, I'd like to have the game be more polished. But I also understand that they're in a competition where they don't have the resources their opponent has. There's a reason your precious ID isn't around; there's a reason 989 isn't in the game right now. Why don't you comment on my post about NFL2K4? Holding it an additional month didn't help the game much. We ALL want more polished games. But I also understand that they have business decisions to make. And right now the gaming public seems to be demanding that they prefer to have good games now, rather than slightly better games later.

Interest in NBA Live SPIKED when they announced an early release. I don't know that VC knew about the bug(s) or not. I don't know that EA knew about the NCAA import but last year or not. The fact is, they have to make a business decision. We, collectively as gamers, give conflicting messages. Many say they're willing to wait for a good game, but by far the majority won't. If you purchase a golf game and are pleased with it, what's your incentive to purchase ANOTHER golf game a month or two later? Be sensible. I don't like it any more than anyone else, but at least I can realize that this isn't some fantasy world where games (particularly sports games) can come out whenever the developers feel the game is ready and still make a profit. Look at Fable for the XBox. There are calculated risks in everything these companies do.

Next year if they hold the game until November, and someone discovers that there's a bug that allows a user to easily circumvent the salary cap - will people say, "at least they fixed the other bugs", or will people say "there goes VC again - held the game an additional two months and STILL had bugs in the game."?

[spankdatazz22]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

A post by Neo with nary a mention of Inside Drive? Color me impressed.

And yes, I do get it. Like I said, I'd like to have the game be more polished. But I also understand that they're in a competition where they don't have the resources their opponent has. There's a reason your precious ID isn't around; there's a reason 989 isn't in the game right now. Why don't you comment on my post about NFL2K4? Holding it an additional month didn't help the game much. We ALL want more polished games. But I also understand that they have business decisions to make. And right now the gaming public seems to be demanding that they prefer to have good games now, rather than slightly better games later.

Interest in NBA Live SPIKED when they announced an early release. I don't know that VC knew about the bug(s) or not. I don't know that EA knew about the NCAA import but last year or not. The fact is, they have to make a business decision. We, collectively as gamers, give conflicting messages. Many say they're willing to wait for a good game, but by far the majority won't. If you purchase a golf game and are pleased with it, what's your incentive to purchase ANOTHER golf game a month or two later? Be sensible. I don't like it any more than anyone else, but at least I can realize that this isn't some fantasy world where games (particularly sports games) can come out whenever the developers feel the game is ready and still make a profit. Look at Fable for the XBox. There are calculated risks in everything these companies do.

Next year if they hold the game until November, and someone discovers that there's a bug that allows a user to easily circumvent the salary cap - will people say, "at least they fixed the other bugs", or will people say "there goes VC again - held the game an additional two months and STILL had bugs in the game."?

[jordan0386]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

that was so fresh, so clean

[jordan0386]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

that was so fresh, so clean

[quietcool72]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

A post by Neo with nary a mention of Inside Drive? Color me impressed.

And yes, I do get it. Like I said, I'd like to have the game be more polished. But I also understand that they're in a competition where they don't have the resources their opponent has. There's a reason your precious ID isn't around; there's a reason 989 isn't in the game right now. Why don't you comment on my post about NFL2K4? Holding it an additional month didn't help the game much. We ALL want more polished games. But I also understand that they have business decisions to make. And right now the gaming public seems to be demanding that they prefer to have good games now, rather than slightly better games later.

Interest in NBA Live SPIKED when they announced an early release. I don't know that VC knew about the bug(s) or not. I don't know that EA knew about the NCAA import but last year or not. The fact is, they have to make a business decision. We, collectively as gamers, give conflicting messages. Many say they're willing to wait for a good game, but by far the majority won't. If you purchase a golf game and are pleased with it, what's your incentive to purchase ANOTHER golf game a month or two later? Be sensible. I don't like it any more than anyone else, but at least I can realize that this isn't some fantasy world where games (particularly sports games) can come out whenever the developers feel the game is ready and still make a profit. Look at Fable for the XBox. There are calculated risks in everything these companies do.

Next year if they hold the game until November, and someone discovers that there's a bug that allows a user to easily circumvent the salary cap - will people say, "at least they fixed the other bugs", or will people say "there goes VC again - held the game an additional two months and STILL had bugs in the game."?

Okay...
Lets call it like we see it.

EA, despite their overuse of the same graphics engines too many years in a row- puts out a "cleaner" "More-finished" product. One need only put Madden 2005 up against ESPN NFL 2K5, and NBA Live 2005 versus ESPN NBA 2K5.

VC needs to clean up its "buggy" rep, and quick. I think we all need to agree on that. Don't blame the industry. Don't say it was necessary. In customer satisfaction, "perception is reality". And that perception is accurate.

I'd like to see VC make great strides in cleaning up their games next year, as apposed to the addition of extraneous fluff. Its troubling that QB Spy doesn't work in NFL 2K5, and the AI doesn't take timeouts in NBA 2K5 franchise games... but those same designers saw fit to add more rooms to "The Crib"...

I mean, come on- where the h*ll are the priorities? You have to admit, they are VERY askew!

I can't say it any plainer than that.

[quietcool72]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

A post by Neo with nary a mention of Inside Drive? Color me impressed.

And yes, I do get it. Like I said, I'd like to have the game be more polished. But I also understand that they're in a competition where they don't have the resources their opponent has. There's a reason your precious ID isn't around; there's a reason 989 isn't in the game right now. Why don't you comment on my post about NFL2K4? Holding it an additional month didn't help the game much. We ALL want more polished games. But I also understand that they have business decisions to make. And right now the gaming public seems to be demanding that they prefer to have good games now, rather than slightly better games later.

Interest in NBA Live SPIKED when they announced an early release. I don't know that VC knew about the bug(s) or not. I don't know that EA knew about the NCAA import but last year or not. The fact is, they have to make a business decision. We, collectively as gamers, give conflicting messages. Many say they're willing to wait for a good game, but by far the majority won't. If you purchase a golf game and are pleased with it, what's your incentive to purchase ANOTHER golf game a month or two later? Be sensible. I don't like it any more than anyone else, but at least I can realize that this isn't some fantasy world where games (particularly sports games) can come out whenever the developers feel the game is ready and still make a profit. Look at Fable for the XBox. There are calculated risks in everything these companies do.

Next year if they hold the game until November, and someone discovers that there's a bug that allows a user to easily circumvent the salary cap - will people say, "at least they fixed the other bugs", or will people say "there goes VC again - held the game an additional two months and STILL had bugs in the game."?

Okay...
Lets call it like we see it.

EA, despite their overuse of the same graphics engines too many years in a row- puts out a "cleaner" "More-finished" product. One need only put Madden 2005 up against ESPN NFL 2K5, and NBA Live 2005 versus ESPN NBA 2K5.

VC needs to clean up its "buggy" rep, and quick. I think we all need to agree on that. Don't blame the industry. Don't say it was necessary. In customer satisfaction, "perception is reality". And that perception is accurate.

I'd like to see VC make great strides in cleaning up their games next year, as apposed to the addition of extraneous fluff. Its troubling that QB Spy doesn't work in NFL 2K5, and the AI doesn't take timeouts in NBA 2K5 franchise games... but those same designers saw fit to add more rooms to "The Crib"...

I mean, come on- where the h*ll are the priorities? You have to admit, they are VERY askew!

I can't say it any plainer than that.

[neovsmatrix]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

"And yes, I do get it. Like I said, I'd like to have the game be more polished. But I also understand that they're in a competition where they don't have the resources their opponent has. There's a reason your precious ID isn't around; there's a reason 989 isn't in the game right now. Why don't you comment on my post about NFL2K4? Holding it an additional month didn't help the game much. We ALL want more polished games. But I also understand that they have business decisions to make. And right now the gaming public seems to be demanding that they prefer to have good games now, rather than slightly better games later."

No, you don't get it. If anyone out there is expecting an absolutely bug-free game that person needs a reality check.

I don't expect a bug-free game, I expect a game that WORKS as advertised and is for the most part free from OBVIOUS bugs.

You're right there IS a reason ID isn't around... a lot of reasons, actually, ranging from the fact that High Voltage quit working on the game, Microsoft already had 2 successful b-ball franchises on the Xbox, possibly poor sales (I don't even know the sales figures for the game), etc.

I'm not even asking Visual Concepts to just WAIT an extra month and get it right. I just disagree with their development approach period. Concepts are implemented that aren't well thought-out, they CHANGE a lot of stuff, remove a lot of stuff, and the game doesn't necessarily become a better game for it. At the same time they're making all these changes which are mostly SUPERFICIAL, they're not fixing the BUGS that were in the previous year's game. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that eventually those bugs will keep growing and eventually undermine the foundation that the game was being built on if not addressed. And then they'll have to go to ANOTHER engine, do a complete re-write and we're back to square one with the game not making any improvements, but taking several steps back.

In other words, they're stuck in a cycle, where any progress is illusory at best.

Visual Concepts just keeps adding new stuff without any regard for fixing the old stuff, and in the end they create more problems than they can address. Thus, they are responsible for their own failures at this point.

[neovsmatrix]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

"And yes, I do get it. Like I said, I'd like to have the game be more polished. But I also understand that they're in a competition where they don't have the resources their opponent has. There's a reason your precious ID isn't around; there's a reason 989 isn't in the game right now. Why don't you comment on my post about NFL2K4? Holding it an additional month didn't help the game much. We ALL want more polished games. But I also understand that they have business decisions to make. And right now the gaming public seems to be demanding that they prefer to have good games now, rather than slightly better games later."

No, you don't get it. If anyone out there is expecting an absolutely bug-free game that person needs a reality check.

I don't expect a bug-free game, I expect a game that WORKS as advertised and is for the most part free from OBVIOUS bugs.

You're right there IS a reason ID isn't around... a lot of reasons, actually, ranging from the fact that High Voltage quit working on the game, Microsoft already had 2 successful b-ball franchises on the Xbox, possibly poor sales (I don't even know the sales figures for the game), etc.

I'm not even asking Visual Concepts to just WAIT an extra month and get it right. I just disagree with their development approach period. Concepts are implemented that aren't well thought-out, they CHANGE a lot of stuff, remove a lot of stuff, and the game doesn't necessarily become a better game for it. At the same time they're making all these changes which are mostly SUPERFICIAL, they're not fixing the BUGS that were in the previous year's game. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that eventually those bugs will keep growing and eventually undermine the foundation that the game was being built on if not addressed. And then they'll have to go to ANOTHER engine, do a complete re-write and we're back to square one with the game not making any improvements, but taking several steps back.

In other words, they're stuck in a cycle, where any progress is illusory at best.

Visual Concepts just keeps adding new stuff without any regard for fixing the old stuff, and in the end they create more problems than they can address. Thus, they are responsible for their own failures at this point.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

The game doesn't work as advertised? I don't understand how it doesn't.

We can go round and round on this, but I'm sure people are tired of it. I can't speak to what the VC developers' mentality is. But I'm sure it's not their intention to have what's perceived as huge bugs in their games. They're obviously opting for trying to push the envelope and innovation, instead of simply maintaining the status quo. For many years, we faulted EA for taking that approach; wierd to see it now endorsed, as it's the "safe" route to go. I would think their goal is to improve significantly on the previous year's game, which I think most people would admit they've done. Sorry that there are things about the game you don't like. Considering the game hasn't even been out a month yet, I'd rather try to enjoy what's good about the game than focus on the bit that's bad.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

The game doesn't work as advertised? I don't understand how it doesn't.

We can go round and round on this, but I'm sure people are tired of it. I can't speak to what the VC developers' mentality is. But I'm sure it's not their intention to have what's perceived as huge bugs in their games. They're obviously opting for trying to push the envelope and innovation, instead of simply maintaining the status quo. For many years, we faulted EA for taking that approach; wierd to see it now endorsed, as it's the "safe" route to go. I would think their goal is to improve significantly on the previous year's game, which I think most people would admit they've done. Sorry that there are things about the game you don't like. Considering the game hasn't even been out a month yet, I'd rather try to enjoy what's good about the game than focus on the bit that's bad.

[NINJAK2]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

Okay...
Lets call it like we see it.

EA, despite their overuse of the same graphics engines too many years in a row- puts out a "cleaner" "More-finished" product. One need only put Madden 2005 up against ESPN NFL 2K5, and NBA Live 2005 versus ESPN NBA 2K5.

VC needs to clean up its "buggy" rep, and quick. I think we all need to agree on that. Don't blame the industry. Don't say it was necessary. In customer satisfaction, "perception is reality". And that perception is accurate.

I'd like to see VC make great strides in cleaning up their games next year, as apposed to the addition of extraneous fluff. Its troubling that QB Spy doesn't work in NFL 2K5, and the AI doesn't take timeouts in NBA 2K5 franchise games... but those same designers saw fit to add more rooms to "The Crib"...

I mean, come on- where the h*ll are the priorities? You have to admit, they are VERY askew!

I can't say it any plainer than that.

No doubt. They have painted themselves almost into a corner now. If they tweak the game and simply fix all the bugs and reorganize the rosters they get labeled with the "not much has changed label" that EA finds themselves getting tagged with. Up until 2003 imo EA deserved that label in the negative sense. 2004 and 2005 has resulted in much improved efforts for the live ,mlb, madden franchises.

Despite having 200 testers at EA those games mangaged to ship with bugs such as no stolen bases, few to zero walks, lefty HR deficiences, inability to import NCAA football rosters for madden, "quicksand" madden glitch, FA Live bug, minimal fast breaks,etc. It took Madden nearly 15 years to really address defensive A.I. in their game. Did EA ship these titles knowing the problems existed? These bugs certainly aren't a green light for VC to ship buggy products but it shows that VC is not the only company capable of doing it.

EA's products are always more polished (even though I've heard horror stories about nhl 2005 this year). This allows EA to add more things with minimal problems. VC puts themselves in the position of having to add new things to an unpolished product just to compete for customers. If VC really wants to make an impact they will have to go the tweaking route in all games ignoring adding new features. Their main focus needs to be on eliminating costly mistakes like the TO bug and QB Spy and make sure everything works properly. A.I. development is a must along with improving animations(DB's for ex). This will probably get them head slapped by some review sites as not "changing enough" but they must make that a priority for their ultimate survival.

[NINJAK2]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

Okay...
Lets call it like we see it.

EA, despite their overuse of the same graphics engines too many years in a row- puts out a "cleaner" "More-finished" product. One need only put Madden 2005 up against ESPN NFL 2K5, and NBA Live 2005 versus ESPN NBA 2K5.

VC needs to clean up its "buggy" rep, and quick. I think we all need to agree on that. Don't blame the industry. Don't say it was necessary. In customer satisfaction, "perception is reality". And that perception is accurate.

I'd like to see VC make great strides in cleaning up their games next year, as apposed to the addition of extraneous fluff. Its troubling that QB Spy doesn't work in NFL 2K5, and the AI doesn't take timeouts in NBA 2K5 franchise games... but those same designers saw fit to add more rooms to "The Crib"...

I mean, come on- where the h*ll are the priorities? You have to admit, they are VERY askew!

I can't say it any plainer than that.

No doubt. They have painted themselves almost into a corner now. If they tweak the game and simply fix all the bugs and reorganize the rosters they get labeled with the "not much has changed label" that EA finds themselves getting tagged with. Up until 2003 imo EA deserved that label in the negative sense. 2004 and 2005 has resulted in much improved efforts for the live ,mlb, madden franchises.

Despite having 200 testers at EA those games mangaged to ship with bugs such as no stolen bases, few to zero walks, lefty HR deficiences, inability to import NCAA football rosters for madden, "quicksand" madden glitch, FA Live bug, minimal fast breaks,etc. It took Madden nearly 15 years to really address defensive A.I. in their game. Did EA ship these titles knowing the problems existed? These bugs certainly aren't a green light for VC to ship buggy products but it shows that VC is not the only company capable of doing it.

EA's products are always more polished (even though I've heard horror stories about nhl 2005 this year). This allows EA to add more things with minimal problems. VC puts themselves in the position of having to add new things to an unpolished product just to compete for customers. If VC really wants to make an impact they will have to go the tweaking route in all games ignoring adding new features. Their main focus needs to be on eliminating costly mistakes like the TO bug and QB Spy and make sure everything works properly. A.I. development is a must along with improving animations(DB's for ex). This will probably get them head slapped by some review sites as not "changing enough" but they must make that a priority for their ultimate survival.

[quietcool72]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

No doubt. They have painted themselves almost into a corner now. If they tweak the game and simply fix all the bugs and reorganize the rosters they get labeled with the "not much has changed label" that EA finds themselves getting tagged with. Up until 2003 imo EA deserved that label in the negative sense. 2004 and 2005 has resulted in much improved efforts for the live ,mlb, madden franchises.

Despite having 200 testers at EA those games mangaged to ship with bugs such as no stolen bases, few to zero walks, lefty HR deficiences, inability to import NCAA football rosters for madden, "quicksand" madden glitch, FA Live bug, minimal fast breaks,etc. It took Madden nearly 15 years to really address defensive A.I. in their game. Did EA ship these titles knowing the problems existed? These bugs certainly aren't a green light for VC to ship buggy products but it shows that VC is not the only company capable of doing it.

EA's products are always more polished (even though I've heard horror stories about nhl 2005 this year). This allows EA to add more things with minimal problems. VC puts themselves in the position of having to add new things to an unpolished product just to compete for customers. If VC really wants to make an impact they will have to go the tweaking route in all games ignoring adding new features. Their main focus needs to be on eliminating costly mistakes like the TO bug and QB Spy and make sure everything works properly. A.I. development is a must along with improving animations(DB's for ex). This will probably get them head slapped by some review sites as not "changing enough" but they must make that a priority for their ultimate survival.

I don't know- I think VC has had two years now of being so vastly superior in terms of presentation to EA's products, that they could have easily afforded to use that time to get things right on the field and on the court.

Again, I think VC is making a HUGE mistake focusing on things like the crib, and other fluff, that represents something that is so negligible, so unimportant, that it is mind-boggling. Better to solidify your product, than constantly bringing an unfinished product to the market and saying "Oh well, we tried harder."

But I honestly think VC has a plan. They are desparately trying to show "potential" in the hopes of someone picking them up. (i.e. leaving Sega.) I had hoped Microsoft was gonna pick them up (apologies to PS2 folks), because they have the virtually limitless funds and resources by which to help them. (Resources THEY ARENT GETTING FROM SEGA OF JAPAN.)

EA would never buy them- maybe PARTS of them- but EA and Tiburon have become synonymous, for better or worse.

Sony could buy them as well (Thereby sparing us the yearly insult that they call their 989 Sports games.) But I don't hear anything about that. I do hear Microsoft/VC rumors though. But so far, nothing I'd put much faith in.

[quietcool72]

Re: CPU Timeout problem, reason inside

No doubt. They have painted themselves almost into a corner now. If they tweak the game and simply fix all the bugs and reorganize the rosters they get labeled with the "not much has changed label" that EA finds themselves getting tagged with. Up until 2003 imo EA deserved that label in the negative sense. 2004 and 2005 has resulted in much improved efforts for the live ,mlb, madden franchises.

Despite having 200 testers at EA those games mangaged to ship with bugs such as no stolen bases, few to zero walks, lefty HR deficiences, inability to import NCAA football rosters for madden, "quicksand" madden glitch, FA Live bug, minimal fast breaks,etc. It took Madden nearly 15 years to really address defensive A.I. in their game. Did EA ship these titles knowing the problems existed? These bugs certainly aren't a green light for VC to ship buggy products but it shows that VC is not the only company capable of doing it.

EA's products are always more polished (even though I've heard horror stories about nhl 2005 this year). This allows EA to add more things with minimal problems. VC puts themselves in the position of having to add new things to an unpolished product just to compete for customers. If VC really wants to make an impact they will have to go the tweaking route in all games ignoring adding new features. Their main focus needs to be on eliminating costly mistakes like the TO bug and QB Spy and make sure everything works properly. A.I. development is a must along with improving animations(DB's for ex). This will probably get them head slapped by some review sites as not "changing enough" but they must make that a priority for their ultimate survival.

I don't know- I think VC has had two years now of being so vastly superior in terms of presentation to EA's products, that they could have easily afforded to use that time to get things right on the field and on the court.

Again, I think VC is making a HUGE mistake focusing on things like the crib, and other fluff, that represents something that is so negligible, so unimportant, that it is mind-boggling. Better to solidify your product, than constantly bringing an unfinished product to the market and saying "Oh well, we tried harder."

But I honestly think VC has a plan. They are desparately trying to show "potential" in the hopes of someone picking them up. (i.e. leaving Sega.) I had hoped Microsoft was gonna pick them up (apologies to PS2 folks), because they have the virtually limitless funds and resources by which to help them. (Resources THEY ARENT GETTING FROM SEGA OF JAPAN.)

EA would never buy them- maybe PARTS of them- but EA and Tiburon have become synonymous, for better or worse.

Sony could buy them as well (Thereby sparing us the yearly insult that they call their 989 Sports games.) But I don't hear anything about that. I do hear Microsoft/VC rumors though. But so far, nothing I'd put much faith in.