Clutch

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Clutch

Again...by this logic, Tracy McGrady, one of the most clutch players we've seen, couldn't make your discussion.

In direct comparison to people who have proved themselves in the second round, conference finals and finals? No, not in direct comparison. No one knows what Tracy would do in seven fourth quarters when a trip to the Finals is on the line. That's a fact. We literally don't know.

I'm not saying you have to reach the Finals to be clutch, but if you're talking about the *most* clutch, then yes my opinion is that experience counts.

The games get harder to win as the playoffs go on, and these adversities are advanced tests in people's clutch and fatigue. I trust the people who have passed these tests over the people who haven't. And certainly more so over the people who haven't even taken these tests, like Grainger.

But again, that's just my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but don't join Pared in saying that it's unreasonable, or that such a stance is proof that I need to "relax".

"Whoa, relax...you think being clutch in the playoffs is more important than being clutch in December? Easy, now."

Come on.

[JBH3]

Re: Clutch

In direct comparison to people who have proved themselves in the second round, conference finals and finals? No, not in direct comparison. No one knows what Tracy would do in seven fourth quarters when a trip to the Finals is on the line. That's a fact. We literally don't know.

I'm not saying you have to reach the Finals to be clutch, but if you're talking about the *most* clutch, then yes my opinion is that experience counts.

The games get harder to win as the playoffs go on, and these adversities are advanced tests in people's clutch and fatigue. I trust the people who have passed these tests over the people who haven't. And certainly more so over the people who haven't even taken these tests, like Grainger.

But again, that's just my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but don't join Pared in saying that it's unreasonable, or that such a stance is proof that I need to "relax".

"Whoa, relax...you think being clutch in the playoffs is more important than being clutch in December? Easy, now."

Come on.

-NO-

The point is, due to McGrady's lack of team success, and the same for Grainger...they haven't had the same opportunities.

Where was Kobe's "clutch" before Gasol came around, Bynum developed, etc.

Where were his Finals bids then?

How can you count Grainger out because, due to a lack of team success, he can't get into the playoffs - much less deep into the playoffs.

We might as well say Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino because he has a ring.

Or Robert Horry...better than Karl Malone because he's more 'clutch' AND has the rings to back it up.

[Vince]

Re: Clutch

LOL It is sad at the lengths some of you go to hate. And you KNOW what I am talking about. How does the whole first page except for 1 person NOT name Kobe? Come on people

I didn't name Kobe because I figured he'd be an obvious choice so mentioned VC because he's been so clutch, but very under the radar lately.

[KG]

Re: Clutch

It is a reasonable point.

If someone would bring that to the table instead of this???????????????????? or backhanded comments, perhaps the forum could improve a little. Maybe just a little?

People just need to explain their answers.

If you think "X" player is clutch that's fine, just explain in which scenario you'd like them to have the ball. Is it 1 shot no dribble, top of the key Iso, off a screen???

When people say Melo & then someone else says Mason I'm thinking an Iso situation and there is no way in hell I'd way Rog 1 on 1 at the top of the key or on the wing.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Clutch

-NO-

The point is, due to McGrady's lack of team success, and the same for Grainger...they haven't had the same opportunities.

Where was Kobe's "clutch" before Gasol came around, Bynum developed, etc.

Where were his Finals bids then?

How can you count Grainger out because, due to a lack of team success, he can't get into the playoffs - much less deep into the playoffs.

We might as well say Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino because he has a ring.

Or Robert Horry...better than Karl Malone because he's more 'clutch' AND has the rings to back it up.

So you think my opinion is unreasonable? You think that trusting people with more experience is unreasonable?

[JBH3]

Re: Clutch

So you think my opinion is unreasonable? You think that trusting people with more experience is unreasonable?

No, I'm saying that since some haven't had the same opportunity to gain the experience, that they can't be left out of the discussion. It's greatly unfair.

82 games is enough to determine someone's clutch ability.

Since getting deep into the playoffs more than just an individual accomplishment you can't count out the Danny Grainger's and Tracy McGrady's because they never played in a conf. finals/NBA Finals game.

[Pared]

Re: Clutch

I didn't name Kobe because I figured he'd be an obvious choice so mentioned VC because he's been so clutch, but very under the radar lately.

He was actually a good choice. In a late game scenario Devin Harris has come through quite often this year for the Nets as well.

People just need to explain their answers.

If you think "X" player is clutch that's fine, just explain in which scenario you'd like them to have the ball. Is it 1 shot no dribble, top of the key Iso, off a screen???

When people say Melo & then someone else says Mason I'm thinking an Iso situation and there is no way in hell I'd way Rog 1 on 1 at the top of the key or on the wing.

Exactly. Some players you'd want the ball in their hands only for a catch and shoot scenario. Given that... however... wouldn't that make them a less viable option in a late game scenario?

Wouldn't you prefer someone who can create for themselves off the dribble?

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Clutch

You can have Grainger as your most clutch player if you want. I just object to being called unreasonable, or initiating a pissing contest because I value playoff experience more than you and Pared.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Clutch

Kobe's clutchness is overrated... poeople remember all the makes but forget about all the misses. Because he is Kobe and everyone knows that he's going to shoot, his attempts are considerably tougher than most, so that explains the 25% figure... however, that's mostly his own doing, as he absolutely loves making those contested 20-footers, which are the absolute worst shots you can take on a basketball court. That's become his style and everyone knows what he's going to do and he does it anyway (at least 25% of the time heh), so I guess that can be something to respect. But give me the more efficient shots that LeBron and others take over Kobe's "look how awesome I am" contested 2s.

Also, you have to consider where they shoot from -- LeBron's numbers are very high because he scores at the rim most of the time whereas almost all of Kobe's last-second attempts are long jumpers. There are a lot of things that affect how you look at these numbers and how you determine who you want shooting.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Clutch

Yea, when I seen Tim Duncan get brought up earlier, I was like "WTF" lol.

[KG]

Re: Clutch

Exactly. Some players you'd want the ball in their hands only for a catch and shoot scenario. Given that... however... wouldn't that make them a less viable option in a late game scenario?

Wouldn't you prefer someone who can create for themselves off the dribble?

Of course but guys like Ray Allen and Reggie Millier have hit clutch shots in huge playoff games without the ability to create by themselves. I can't discount their "clutchness". If those guys were the best options on my team as a Coach I'd run plays for them in that scenario.

Personally I'd rather have a guy that you can leave at the top of the key with no pick coming and count on that person getting a good shot off.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Clutch

Sour grapes ftw

LBJ at the top
Kobe second

Everyone else

[Pared]

Re: Clutch

Yea, when I seen Tim Duncan get brought up earlier, I was like "WTF" lol.

[KG]

Re: Clutch

Kobe's clutchness is overrated... poeople remember all the makes but forget about all the misses. Because he is Kobe and everyone knows that he's going to shoot, his attempts are considerably tougher than most, so that explains the 25% figure... however, that's mostly his own doing, as he absolutely loves making those contested 20-footers, which are the absolute worst shots you can take on a basketball court. That's become his style and everyone knows what he's going to do and he does it anyway (at least 25% of the time heh), so I guess that can be something to respect. But give me the more efficient shots that LeBron and others take over Kobe's "look how awesome I am" contested 2s.

Also, you have to consider where they shoot from -- LeBron's numbers are very high because he scores at the rim most of the time whereas almost all of Kobe's last-second attempts are long jumpers. There are a lot of things that affect how you look at these numbers and how you determine who you want shooting.

We've all seen that Mike commercial. To be fair most game winners are jumpers. Going to the rim where you have to finish in traffic is just as difficult as a contested jumper. You might get the bailout call but that's putting the pressure on the officials and no one likes to see games decided by calls whether they're legit or not.

[Pared]

Re: Clutch

Of course but guys like Ray Allen and Reggie Millier have hit clutch shots in huge playoff games without the ability to create by themselves. I can't discount their "clutchness". If those guys were the best options on my team as a Coach I'd run plays for them in that scenario.

Personally I'd rather have a guy that you can leave at the top of the key with no pick coming and count on that person getting a good shot off.

Yup, same here.