Clutch

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Clutch

Kobe's clutch ability on game-winners is certainly overrated, as the numbers back up. The thing is that he ALWAYS takes that shot for the Lakers (1 assist in a game-winning situation in the last 8 seasons), so everyone knows what's coming, making his shots considerably tougher than with other players who switch up their attack in these situations. He's almost always taking a contested 2 or a contested 3 (depending on what they need) after basically just dribbling out the clock -- that's an incredibly tough shot, and in the case of the 2, is literally the worst shot in basketball. But that's his steez, and he likes nothing more than making the worst shot in the world to win the game, so that's what he does... the 25% is self-inflicted.

But give me a more efficient shot anyday. LeBron gets the majority of his GW shots at the rack, so playing the percentages (which is the smart move), he's the clear choice, especially considering his rate of drawing fouls, which is an even more efficient way to win the game.

EDIT: Whoops, double post... thought the first one didn't take for some reason.

[DC]

Re: Clutch

Doing it in the playoffs holds MORE water than doing it for a team that is 20 games under .500. I don't see how you can logically not understand that.

@ Pared; I NEVER said because someone hasn't done it in a meaningful situation means they AREN'T clutch. I simply said their clutch level can't be held on the same level as someone that has done it when it matters (playoffs)

Vince was a cool choice. Vince has made some big shots. But to say you didn't name Kobe because he is "understood" is funny because some folks REALLY believe it isn't a given

But when people start naming folks that have been losers (team success) for the most of their careers OVER folks that have done it on ALL levels is what upsets me.

There is NO EXCUSE for Kobe to only be named ONCE on the entire first page. How can you even defend that?

The question is MOST clutch. Not naming folks who fall numbers 4 and below.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Clutch

We've all seen that Mike commercial. To be fair most game winners are jumpers. Going to the rim where you have to finish in traffic is just as difficult as a contested jumper. You might get the bailout call but that's putting the pressure on the officials and no one likes to see games decided by calls whether they're legit or not.

\
Which is why LeBron is so crazy... he manages to get and make those more efficient shots at a higher rate than Kobe makes those contested jumpers. The FreeDarko book had a cool section on why LeBron is so insane in this regard... don't have the book with me, but I think it was that until this year, every single GW except 1 by LeBron was at the rim. He's the only guy even close to that -- I think VC was #2.

[DC]

Re: Clutch

But give me a more efficient shot anyday. LeBron gets the majority of his GW shots at the rack, so playing the percentages (which is the smart move), he's the clear choice, especially considering his rate of drawing fouls, which is an even more efficient way to win the game.

I can agree with that point. Nice post Stumble.

Still doesn't support some of the other answers in this thread.

[ehh]

Re: Clutch

1 assist in a game-winning situation in the last 8 seasons

Dayum!

[Pared]

Re: Clutch

Doing it in the playoffs holds MORE water than doing it for a team that is 20 games under .500. I don't see how you can logically not understand that.

@ Pared; I NEVER said because someone hasn't done it in a meaningful situation means they AREN'T clutch. I simply said their clutch level can't be held on the same level as someone that has done it when it matters (playoffs)

Vince was a cool choice. Vince has made some big shots. But to say you didn't name Kobe because he is "understood" is funny because some folks REALLY believe it isn't a given

But when people start naming folks that have been losers (team success) for the most of their careers OVER folks that have done it on ALL levels is what upsets me.

There is NO EXCUSE for Kobe to only be named ONCE on the entire first page. How can you even defend that?

The question is MOST clutch. Not naming folks who fall numbers 4 and below.

Good post.

[KG]

Re: Clutch

Kobe's clutch ability on game-winners is certainly overrated, as the numbers back up. The thing is that he ALWAYS takes that shot for the Lakers (1 assist in a game-winning situation in the last 8 seasons), so everyone knows what's coming, making his shots considerably tougher than with other players who switch up their attack in these situations. He's almost always taking a contested 2 or a contested 3 (depending on what they need) after basically just dribbling out the clock -- that's an incredibly tough shot, and in the case of the 2, is literally the worst shot in basketball. But that's his steez, and he likes nothing more than making the worst shot in the world to win the game, so that's what he does... the 25% is self-inflicted.

But give me a more efficient shot anyday. LeBron gets the majority of his GW shots at the rack, so playing the percentages (which is the smart move), he's the clear choice, especially considering his rate of drawing fouls, which is an even more efficient way to win the game.

EDIT: Whoops, double post... thought the first one didn't take for some reason.

I don't disagree with you 100% but at the end of the day I guess you're willing to live with someone other than your star taking the game winner.

I'm not. If I go down in a close game I can live with my star missing the final shot a lot more than I can the 4th or 5th option.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Clutch

Dayum!

Heh yeah, that surprised me too... but Ray Allen is on that list too, along with most of the other guys on the leaderboard for GW shots. That info is at this link, which was posted by me and someone else earlier: http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Interestingly enough, Paul Pierce leads in assists in that situation with 9 (LeBron, Bibby, Chauncey tied for #2 at 6), which probably comes from having cold-blooded Ray-Ray to finish things off after he attracts the defense's attention. I always think it's cool how symbiotic stats are.

Heh, Chauncey didn't do anything but get calls... less that 20% shooting but 18/19 FT hahaha... dude is a beast getting those calls late.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: Clutch

Good post.

He just reworded the same thing we've been saying this whole time that you claimed was starting a pissing contest.

[KG]

Re: Clutch

\
Which is why LeBron is so crazy... he manages to get and make those more efficient shots at a higher rate than Kobe makes those contested jumpers. The FreeDarko book had a cool section on why LeBron is so insane in this regard... don't have the book with me, but I think it was that until this year, every single GW except 1 by LeBron was at the rim. He's the only guy even close to that -- I think VC was #2.

Nice freedarko drop. Bron is crazy and can get any shot he wants.

Dayum!

In that time period who else would you want him passing the ball to?

Fisher/Big Shot Bob are the only people I can think of and I can't remember what yr Bob left LA for SA.

[Hassan Darkside]

Re: Clutch

Kobe's clutchness is overrated... poeople remember all the makes but forget about all the misses. Because he is Kobe and everyone knows that he's going to shoot, his attempts are considerably tougher than most, so that explains the 25% figure... however, that's mostly his own doing, as he absolutely loves making those contested 20-footers, which are the absolute worst shots you can take on a basketball court. That's become his style and everyone knows what he's going to do and he does it anyway (at least 25% of the time heh), so I guess that can be something to respect. But give me the more efficient shots that LeBron and others take over Kobe's "look how awesome I am" contested 2s.

Also, you have to consider where they shoot from -- LeBron's numbers are very high because he scores at the rim most of the time whereas almost all of Kobe's last-second attempts are long jumpers. There are a lot of things that affect how you look at these numbers and how you determine who you want shooting.

I agree with your point but I kinda disagree that Kobe's clutchness is overrated. Nobody in the league is gonna hit contested jumpers like Kobe is. Are they poor shots? Yea, I suppose. But that's what separates him. Just watching him take them you gotta kinda hold your breath on each one because you feel like each shot he takes, even if he's missed the last 10, just might go in. I respect Kobe's clutchness because he can do it from all over, from 3, from midrange, deep twos, contested twos and threes, at the basket, at the freethrow line.

I don't think many of LeBron's opponents respect his jumpshot as much as Kobe's. In fact, if I'm playing LeBron, I much rather him take the same type of shots Kobe takes and I'll feel confident that the end result will favor me. LeBron just doesn't have the resume yet, although he seems to be getting there. He sometimes settles too much for that contested jumper when everybody in the building knows dang well he can get to the basket.

But I'll say that LeBron's shot selection is superior to Kobe's, probably because he doesn't have that equal confidence in his ability to score from outside yet. But I don't think Kobe's clutchness is overrated. Often times it goes unnoticed when the Lakers are slipping and nothing's going in but Kobe hits that one shot that keeps them still in the game, whether it's with 3 minutes or 10 minutes left.

Also, looking at the 82 games.com clutch stats (with 5 minutes to go), LeBron's rebounding/assist numbers are insane. And Wade's blocks number is ridic...

[KG]

Re: Clutch

I agree with your point but I kinda disagree that Kobe's clutchness is overrated. Nobody in the league is gonna hit contested jumpers like Kobe is. Are they poor shots? Yea, I suppose. But that's what separates him. Just watching him take them you gotta kinda hold your breath on each one because you feel like each shot he takes, even if he's missed the last 10, just might go in. I respect Kobe's clutchness because he can do it from all over, from 3, from midrange, deep twos, contested twos and threes, at the basket, at the freethrow line.
I don't think many of LeBron's opponents respect his jumpshot as much as Kobe's. In fact, if I'm playing LeBron, I much rather him take the same type of shots Kobe takes and I'll feel confident that the end result will favor me. LeBron just doesn't have the resume yet, although he seems to be getting there. He sometimes settles too much for that contested jumper when everybody in the building knows dang well he can get to the basket.

But I'll say that LeBron's shot selection is superior to Kobe's, probably because he doesn't have that equal confidence in his ability to score from outside yet. But I don't think Kobe's clutchness is overrated. Often times it goes unnoticed when the Lakers are slipping and nothing's going in but Kobe hits that one shot that keeps them still in the game, whether it's with 3 minutes or 10 minutes left.

Also, looking at the 82 games.com clutch stats (with 5 minutes to go), LeBron's rebounding/assist numbers are insane. And Wade's blocks number is ridic...

I would love to see a "stop the bleeding stat". That's a different type of clutch right there.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Clutch

Wade's blocks in crunch time are an awesome stat... tied with Yao and Dwight for the lead among players with 100+ minutes of crunch time haha... crazy bastid.

Kobe's penchant for taking and making contested shots is probably the biggest double-edged sword in the league. Defenses just stack against him and he doesn't pass the ball, but still manages 25%, which isn't TERRIBLE for GW shots, but not good either (league average is 29.8%). Most mortals would be at 15% ha, but I still would take a more efficient player who works harder to get those close shots instead of taking the "easy out" and lofting a jumper. There's a reason that most GWs are jumpers, and that's because it's easier to do that than to get to the rim... plus, it's more daggerific, so a guy like Kobe (or Arenas) who loves making an example of defenders lives for that ****.

[ehh]

Re: Clutch

Heh yeah, that surprised me too... but Ray Allen is on that list too, along with most of the other guys on the leaderboard for GW shots. That info is at this link, which was posted by me and someone else earlier: http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

While Ray Ray is up there in game-winning FGA's he gets them in a different fashion than Kobe does. Ray is coming off screens and set plays where he's suppose to be open and shoot while Kobe is given the ball for an iso, told to make something happen and draws 2, 3 or 4 defenders to him. The low assist total for both is surprising but it's more understandable for Ray.

In that time period who else would you want him passing the ball to?

Anyone who's open and has a great look. It's not like Bill Wennington or Steve Kerr were an All-Stars but Jordan trusted them when they were wide open. With all the attention Kobe gets in these types of situations you'd think a teammate would be wide open more than once in 56 game winning situations. It's really a generalization unless we view tape of every single one of the 56 situations but it's very surpsing that he has only one dime during that period. I'm not expecting him to have 7-10 assists in those situations but one seems pretty extreme.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: Clutch

Found the clutch stats for 07-08 for ya GSW. Baron and Jackson fared MUCH better there -- 49% FGs and 35% 3PT for Baron and 47% FGs and 45.7% 3PT. Both were amongst the league leaders.

http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

And yeah ehh, Ray-Ray is a different monster altogether from Kobe where that is concerned.

The playoff GW information is below the normal info and Kobe and Lebron are tied with 4 makes each, both on 50% shooting. Dirk is #3 with 3 makes, also on 50% shooting. Seems about right.