The LeBron James Thread

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  • King_B_Mack
    All Star
    • Jan 2009
    • 24450

    #11146
    Re: The LeBron James Thread

    Originally posted by BringTheHeat
    It does make sense to save something though, it hasn't been scouted.

    I agree with you but imagine Wade coming off a James screen, Wade cuts to the middle, Bron rolls towards the goal, and a shooter/Bosh leaks out to high post. Wide open shot every time.
    When you're in the playoffs it makes absolutely no sense to save anything as if you're guaranteed to make it on. Especially considering the Heat were down 2-1 to the Pacers and looking dead for a moment there without Bosh.

    Comment

    • BringTheHeat
      MVP
      • Jan 2012
      • 2264

      #11147
      Re: The LeBron James Thread

      Originally posted by King_B_Mack
      When you're in the playoffs it makes absolutely no sense to save anything as if you're guaranteed to make it on. Especially considering the Heat were down 2-1 to the Pacers and looking dead for a moment there without Bosh.
      Down 2-1 is hardly a reason to panic, and I think they proved that. Worse teams have come back from bigger deficits.
      "To the last minute, to the last second, to the last man, we fight"

      Comment

      • King_B_Mack
        All Star
        • Jan 2009
        • 24450

        #11148
        Re: The LeBron James Thread

        Originally posted by BringTheHeat
        Down 2-1 is hardly a reason to panic, and I think they proved that. Worse teams have come back from bigger deficits.
        Not saying it's time to panic, but you don't sit around talking about saving things for the Finals when you're in a dogfight to get out of the second round.

        Comment

        • ProfessaPackMan
          Bamma
          • Mar 2008
          • 63852

          #11149
          Re: The LeBron James Thread

          Saving things for the Playoffs(in ANY sport)is the most ridiculous and probably dumbest thing you can do because unless you're doing a lineup change, 9 times out of 10 you're not going to run something that opposing teams haven't seen before, especially in a sport where you play 82 times a year in a season.
          #RespectTheCulture

          Comment

          • BringTheHeat
            MVP
            • Jan 2012
            • 2264

            #11150
            Re: The LeBron James Thread

            Well then it's a good thing I'm not Miami's coach.


            Terrific game for the MVP
            "To the last minute, to the last second, to the last man, we fight"

            Comment

            • The 24th Letter
              ERA
              • Oct 2007
              • 39373

              #11151
              Ive heard plenty of coaches talk about some back pocket plays and wrinkles in the system.....I know JVG said he never saw the matchup zone the C's played last night during the reg season ...

              I don't think the Bron/James P&R is in that category though....it's just something they do ever so often...it's just a different look they have...
              Last edited by The 24th Letter; 05-29-2012, 05:34 AM.

              Comment

              • wwharton
                *ll St*r
                • Aug 2002
                • 26949

                #11152
                Re: The LeBron James Thread

                Originally posted by BringTheHeat
                It does make sense to save something though, it hasn't been scouted.

                I agree with you but imagine Wade coming off a James screen, Wade cuts to the middle, Bron rolls towards the goal, and a shooter/Bosh leaks out to high post. Wide open shot every time.
                No it really doesn't. It'd be pretty arrogant to assume you're going to make it to the finals where you can unleash the ultimate strategy.

                If you agree with me then your imagination wouldn't play out like that, lol. If I know Wade is coming off a James screen, I have the defenders trap Wade while the rotating big is already in position to deny a rolling James just like standard PnR defense would have it since he knows it's coming. Even if it's not a trap, standard PnR D would have James' defender hedging which would make a pass to even a "popping" James difficult.

                And that doesn't even touch on the picture you painted has Wade driving down the paint, James rolling in the paint and Bosh flashing to the paint. Any defense would love this kind of spacing between the three stars. The only wide open shots you'd see with this is used a couple of times a game, catching a defense off guard and the rotating big not getting in proper position (see the Pacers last game) which still makes a normal PnR effective anyway while still having good spacing for the best players, but putting the role players in better roles to contribute.

                Originally posted by The 24th Letter
                Ive heard plenty of coaches talk about some back pocket plays and wrinkles in the system.....I know JVG said he never saw the matchup zone the C's played last night during the reg season ...

                I don't think the Bron/James P&R is in that category though....it's just something they do ever so often...it's just a different look they have...
                A team would save something like a matchup zone though. It's something you use to stop a specific opponent. Change the opponent, you change the strategy. It's not like a team would say "Our matchup zone would shut anybody down BUT we're going to save it for the championship." If they don't make it to the championship, they'd look pretty foolish saving what they considered their ultimate weapon.

                Also, coaches have hundreds if not thousands of plays... quick hitters, side line, out of bounds under the basket, breaks off missed free throws, etc. You can only practice so many so they may introduce some new ones later for late in the quarter/game situations, coming out of time outs, etc. Again, very different than an offensive set or strategy they think would be unstoppable and choosing not to use it until the finals.

                Comment

                • BringTheHeat
                  MVP
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 2264

                  #11153
                  Re: The LeBron James Thread

                  I get the whole arrogance thing to assume you're going to make it, but we saw Wade and James take it to another level when they needed to in game 4. They were desperate. If you can win while hiding something why use it? Maybe they were going to run it but didn't feel they needed to?

                  And I meant Bosh flashing to the high post extended, his sweet spot. You have James' defender helping with the slashing Wade, Wade's defender trying to help with James' cut and getting back to Wade. You have the 4 guy staying home to help on the penetration, leaving Bosh wide open. It's no secret Garnett likes to stay home instead of close out on his man.

                  I think I'm giving Spo too much credit to have a master plan, but then again I'm no coach.
                  "To the last minute, to the last second, to the last man, we fight"

                  Comment

                  • wwharton
                    *ll St*r
                    • Aug 2002
                    • 26949

                    #11154
                    Re: The LeBron James Thread

                    Originally posted by BringTheHeat
                    I get the whole arrogance thing to assume you're going to make it, but we saw Wade and James take it to another level when they needed to in game 4. They were desperate. If you can win while hiding something why use it? Maybe they were going to run it but didn't feel they needed to?

                    And I meant Bosh flashing to the high post extended, his sweet spot. You have James' defender helping with the slashing Wade, Wade's defender trying to help with James' cut and getting back to Wade. You have the 4 guy staying home to help on the penetration, leaving Bosh wide open. It's no secret Garnett likes to stay home instead of close out on his man.

                    I think I'm giving Spo too much credit to have a master plan, but then again I'm no coach.
                    1. The Heat are the best team in the NBA but they aren't as good as you may think they are... not good enough to assume they can hold back an "unstoppable" strategy until the finals. They were the best team in the NBA last year and lost in the finals. Stuff happens. Just bc James and Wade are capable of going to another level doesn't mean they can just do it whenever they feel like it, and definitely doesn't mean you should expect it. Doesn't work like that.

                    2. I don't know what else to tell you. Proper PnR defense would be aided by James and Wade running the PnR. Improper PnR defense would be exposed with either of them getting a pick from a lesser player. It's not the unstoppable dream situation you think it is. I know you're pretty set on agreeing to disagree with me, but they've been playing together for 2 full years now. There's a reason it isn't a staple of their offense (and barely ever done). Bosh setting a screen for either is EXACTLY what they should be doing, but Wade/James screen and roll is only good as a surprise play.

                    Comment

                    • BringTheHeat
                      MVP
                      • Jan 2012
                      • 2264

                      #11155
                      Re: The LeBron James Thread

                      Originally posted by wwharton
                      1. The Heat are the best team in the NBA but they aren't as good as you may think they are... not good enough to assume they can hold back an "unstoppable" strategy until the finals. They were the best team in the NBA last year and lost in the finals. Stuff happens. Just bc James and Wade are capable of going to another level doesn't mean they can just do it whenever they feel like it, and definitely doesn't mean you should expect it. Doesn't work like that.

                      2. I don't know what else to tell you. Proper PnR defense would be aided by James and Wade running the PnR. Improper PnR defense would be exposed with either of them getting a pick from a lesser player. It's not the unstoppable dream situation you think it is. I know you're pretty set on agreeing to disagree with me, but they've been playing together for 2 full years now. There's a reason it isn't a staple of their offense (and barely ever done). Bosh setting a screen for either is EXACTLY what they should be doing, but Wade/James screen and roll is only good as a surprise play.
                      I don't know about the best team, I think we'll have our hands full with San Antonio if we both make it there. We do have 2 of the top 5 players in the league though and I do believe they can turn it on when needed.

                      But I'm biased. You're probably right on the PnR thing.
                      "To the last minute, to the last second, to the last man, we fight"

                      Comment

                      • The 24th Letter
                        ERA
                        • Oct 2007
                        • 39373

                        #11156
                        Well don't me wrong, I don't think there's some supposed unstoppable play waiting to be unveiled at the end of the year like the movies...lol. I probably know the Spurs sets as much as anyone, and I know for a fact we have "money" sets we use to generate offense...I would assume every team does. Saw some stuff on O tailor fit for OKC on Sunday too...

                        As far as the P&R, way too much of a simplification...saying the defense will just...adjust. It's the most dynamic play in basketball for a reason. Steve Nash, Amare, the defense and everyone in the stands knew they were going to run the P&R and it worked constantly....same as Manu and Splitter the other night...it's dangerous with the right personnel...

                        Simply put, the LBJ/Wade P&R has l worked more than its failed...no real reason to think itd be detrimental to up its usage until proven otherwise..

                        Comment

                        • Hotobu
                          MVP
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1438

                          #11157
                          Re: The LeBron James Thread

                          Correct me if I'm wrong here, but generally the biggest threat of a pick and roll is the mismatch it can create when the defenders are switched combined with the quickness of the defenders and their ability to get back to their matchup. What do you really achieve if Lebron and Wade's defenders are switched? Lebron's almost always got the advantage in a 1 on 1 with his defender and so does Wade in both quickness and strength. If we take a stereotypical/generic 2 and 3 and switch them then what Wade gains in a quickness advantage he loses in strength and vice versa for Lebron.

                          You can't compare a Wade Lebron P&R to Nash and Amare because not only would their defenders be vastly different from each other in terms size/quickness/strength, but a high P&R from Amare also brings an interior defender out of the paint making the Nash drive, or a dish to a cutter more effective.

                          Comment

                          • The 24th Letter
                            ERA
                            • Oct 2007
                            • 39373

                            #11158
                            True enough.

                            Wasn't comparing it to Nash and Stat In that regard, just that it's not as simple as adjusting to it....

                            I did the research after posting, will post it when I can...you can argue the results of overdoing it, but you can't really argue its efficiency...it's up there. Their playmaking, athleticism in the pick and roll adds a different dynamic all in its own...I bet Heat fans would take that over the amount of times LBJ and Wade are sitting at the 3 point line in possessions...

                            Comment

                            • BringTheHeat
                              MVP
                              • Jan 2012
                              • 2264

                              #11159
                              Re: The LeBron James Thread

                              That's no lie. Or the stupid NBA Finals offense (1. Bosh Pick and Roll 2. Repeat step 1).

                              I think the thing that makes that PnR so dangerous is Wade's ability to split the double/trap/switch. He's one of if not the best in the league at splitting. And anytime you can split you're going to have a defensive collapse, generating great looks for Chalmers, Battier, Miller, and Bosh.
                              "To the last minute, to the last second, to the last man, we fight"

                              Comment

                              • BringTheHeat
                                MVP
                                • Jan 2012
                                • 2264

                                #11160
                                Re: The LeBron James Thread

                                In other news...LeBron leads the post season in 4th quarter scoring. And is tied with Ginobili for first in "clutch" scoring.

                                "To the last minute, to the last second, to the last man, we fight"

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