Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

wilt chamberlain, bill russell, shaquille o'neal, kareem abdul-jabbar, hakeem olajuwon are clearly better.

where you rank moses amongst bill walton, david robinson, patrick ewing, robert parish, willis reed, wes unseld, bob petit and george mikan is up to you. i don't necesarily agree that there are 10-15 better centers, since that position isn't exactly a hotbed for unquestionable greatness, but there's a case to be made for everyone i listed.

and I could probably list 15 or more players that cases could be made for arguably being better than Lebron...

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I do wonder if you actually watched that series

anyway, if you want to change the criteria of the MVP, and use hindsight to include the playoffs...then Tim Duncan should have won it that season. You mention DWhistle and Kobe, DW played in 50 games that season and Kobe didnt do any better than Dirk in the playoffs THAT season

but that isnt how it works. MVP has always been a regular season award. There is an MVP awarded for the finals and Duncan won that.

well, the thing with the mvp is there is no set criteria, it's purposefully ambiguous. however, by no measure that i've ever heard can anyone really make a meaningful claim that dirk's 06-07 mvp award is justified over all three of the others. and that's without taking into consideration the playoffs, i don't think his regular season was mvp-worthy.

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

and I could probably list 15 or more players that cases could be made for arguably being better than Lebron...

i don't think anyone is saying lebron is one of the best 15 players of all-time, though. the feeling was that he definitely had the potential, and was certainly on pace, to end up well within that conversation at the last.

also, if you were trying to make a parallel to the moses malone argument, you'd have to name 15 better small forwards, which you wouldn't be able to do. i don't mean that as an attack, either, i don't think there are 15 better small forwards to have played than him.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

if you want to change the criteria of the MVP, and use hindsight to include the playoffs...then Tim Duncan should have won it that season. You mention DWhistle and Kobe, DW played in 50 games that season and Kobe didnt do any better than Dirk in the playoffs THAT season

but that isnt how it works. MVP has always been a regular season award. There is an MVP awarded for the finals and Duncan won that.

The criteria for any great player is to help the team win in as many ways as possible. To inspire your teammates and lift them to heights they couldn't reach on their own.

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Walton's passing ability was far superior to Malone. He was unselfish and didn't need to force the shots that Malone did. He was also a good rebounder although he wasn't as good as Malone.

Robinson had much quicker feet, was a quicker and more explosive jumper, and was a better weak side shot blocker.

Parrish and Ewing were choke artists of the highest order and have no business on any 'greatest' list. Malone was better than those two were (not saying much).

Unseld did all the dirty work, was the greatest outlet passer of all time, and was strong as an ox.

Willis Reed's courage propelled the Knicks to greatness.

Petit and Mikan were most likely better players than Malone was. However, I only listed players whose games I had a firm grasp on.

parrish and ewing were very good players. what makes you call parrish a choke artist? i'm not saying i'd want to build a franchise around ewing or parrish, just as i woudn't build one around moses, but you wrote them off as if it's ludicrous to consider them top 15 centers.

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

The criteria for any great player is to help the team win in as many ways as possible. To inspire your teammates and lift them to heights they couldn't reach on their own.

heights like Dirk taking the Mavs franchise to it's first ever finals (with no true point guards and a rookie head coach no less)...

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

i don't think anyone is saying lebron is one of the best 15 players of all-time, though. the feeling was that he definitely had the potential, and was certainly on pace, to end up well within that conversation at the last.

Malone was probably in some of those conversations also when he entered the league...

also, if you were trying to make a parallel to the moses malone argument, you'd have to name 15 better small forwards, which you wouldn't be able to do. i don't mean that as an attack, either, i don't think there are 15 better small forwards to have played than him.

my point was that if it can be argued that there are 15 better pivots than Malone...then arguments could be made for 15 better wings than Lebron

I dont actually think there are 15 better wings than Lebron

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

heights like Dirk taking the Mavs franchise to it's first ever finals....

i don't think he means just accomplishments, but on a game-by-game basis. if, say, dirk is extremely off that night and can only get you 12 points, what else can he do to help the team win?

my contention is that he doesn't bring enough other high-level skills to the game to off-set a counter to his one major skill. meaning, theoretically, if you put dennis rodman on him and told dennis "don't let him crack 15 points", you can safely assume he won't get 15 points. what else can he do to make the mavs win that game?

all the other mvp candidates from that season could contribute at an elite level in other ways that weren't their primary strength. kobe could help out defensively, on the glass and by setting up teammates. you can't really stop nash's passing, but teams that would try to force him to score would get hit up for 30 points a night. duncan was so well-rounded, we don't really have a way to measure what his one best skill was because he was good at everything for his position.

dirk had scoring, and was an average rebounder at best for a 7 foot power forward. and he wasn't stopping anyone, so...what did he do?

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Malone was probably in some of those conversations also when he entered the league...

my point was that if it can be argued that there are 15 better pivots than Malone...then arguments could be made for 15 better wings than Lebron

I dont actually think there are 15 better wings than Lebron

while i can't argue a "probably" statement, all i can do is say i've never heard anyone even try to make a claim that moses was a top 15'er. and this is the age of the internet where every idea has a following.

and yes, it can be argued that there are 15 better swingmen than lebron, but no one is foolish enough to make it, and if they were, they'd be flamebroiled. it's not a legit argument.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

heights like Dirk taking the Mavs franchise to it's first ever finals (with no true point guards and a rookie head coach no less)...

They blew a 12 point lead with 6 minutes left in game 3 of the NBA Finals. On the brink of sure victory their leader (Dirk) proved once and for all that he didn't have a killer instinct (necessary of any great scorer). They blew the game and went on to lose the next 3 games in a row (they even got closed out at home!). It was humiliating. A truly great player does not allow that to happen.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

parrish and ewing were very good players. what makes you call parrish a choke artist? i'm not saying i'd want to build a franchise around ewing or parrish, just as i woudn't build one around moses, but you wrote them off as if it's ludicrous to consider them top 15 centers.

Maybe because Parrish would miss wide open 6 footers, opt for impossible fadeaways, dribble the ball of his knee, fumble passes, and pass to no one in the clutch? That may have something to do with it. DJ, Bird, and McHale carried the Celtics. Parrish was along for the fun ride.

Ewing was a jump shooting center who couldn't pass, defend, or hit a clutch shot to get into heaven.

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

i don't think he means just accomplishments, but on a game-by-game basis. if, say, dirk is extremely off that night and can only get you 12 points, what else can he do to help the team win?

rebound, set picks, pass, play team defense, be a coach on the floor, etc....With the attention Nowitzki gets, and the match up problems he creates, Dirk's presence opens up the court for other players whether he is scoring or not. Watch some Mavs games

Dirk isnt an elite defender obviously, but he is a very underrated team defender overall when he attempts to be and you dont often see players torching Dirk and scoring a lot of points on him. He's a smart basketball player so he will make an impact on the game besides scoring.

Anyway, Dirk is paid to carry the bulk of the scoring load and that is heavy lifting enough

my contention is that he doesn't bring enough other high-level skills to the game to off-set a counter to his one major skill. meaning, theoretically, if you put dennis rodman on him and told dennis "don't let him crack 15 points", you can safely assume he won't get 15 points. what else can he do to make the mavs win that game?

you havent watched him play much have you

You arent going to be able to put one player on Dirk and say "shut him down", regardless if it's Rodman or Bowen or whomever. That is not a strategy that is going to work consistently.

all the other mvp candidates from that season could contribute at an elite level in other ways that weren't their primary strength. kobe could help out defensively, on the glass and by setting up teammates. you can't really stop nash's passing, but teams that would try to force him to score would get hit up for 30 points a night. duncan was so well-rounded, we don't really have a way to measure what his one best skill was because he was good at everything for his position.

fyi, there are no perfect players in the NBA...not even Kobe. Although, he is probably the closest you will find.

dirk had scoring, and was an average rebounder at best for a 7 foot power forward. and he wasn't stopping anyone, so...what did he do?

He is certainly not an "average rebounder". The facts dont back that up at all. Dirk has been one of the best defensive rebounders in the league since 2000. He's been the best rebounder every season for consistently one of the better rebounding teams in the league over the past 10 seasons.

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

They blew a 12 point lead with 6 minutes left in game 3 of the NBA Finals. On the brink of sure victory their leader (Dirk) proved once and for all that he didn't have a killer instinct (necessary of any great scorer). They blew the game and went on to lose the next 3 games in a row (they even got closed out at home!). It was humiliating. A truly great player does not allow that to happen.

example: game 5. series tied 2-2. DWade has more free throw attempts than the ENTIRE Mavericks team and is in the process of shattering MJ's all time finals FT attempt record (a record that will never be broken)....yet despite the extreme one sidedness of the game Dirk hits a go ahead shot over Shaq and Haslem with 9 seconds left to put the Mavs ahead by one...only to have an out of control DWhistle get bailed out by an out of position Bennett Salvatore with 1.8 seconds left FTW after going 1 on 4 out of control. Salvatore blows that whistle, wins the game, and that makes DWade "clutch".

anyway, I dont know why im discussing this with someone who has revisionist memory or probably didnt even watch that series at all

[AlexBrady]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

example: game 5. series tied 2-2. DWade has more free throw attempts than the ENTIRE Mavericks team and is in the process of shattering MJ's all time finals FT attempt record (a record that will never be broken)....yet despite the extreme one sidedness of the game Dirk hits a go ahead shot over Shaq and Haslem with 9 seconds left to put the Mavs ahead by one...only to have an out of control DWhistle get bailed out by an out of position Bennett Salvatore with 1.8 seconds left FTW after going 1 on 4 out of control. Salvatore blows that whistle, wins the game, and that makes DWade "clutch".

anyway, I dont know why im discussing this with someone who has revisionist memory or probably didnt even watch that series at all

Inept referees. Every champion in history has had to overcome refs who don't understand the game. If the Mavericks really were champions the game wouldn't have even come to that split second decision.

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

corrupt referees.

fixed

when else have you seen a player shoot as many free throws as Wade did in that finals series? Never. DWade shattered the record and it's a record that will probably never be broken with the microscope on the officials after the scandal

When else have you seen a player bailed out with a whistle FTW with less than 2 seconds left in a regular season game much less in game five of a finals with the series tied 2-2? When have you seen a player shoot more free throws than the entire opposing team in the same game?

when have you seen fouls like this in a finals series?
<object width="480" height="385">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5y8nI1PPYOk&hl=en_US&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></object>

I bet your response to that video is Dirk shouldnt have fouled Wade on the play, its a sign of bad leadership. Wade drawing a foul on Dirk there is "clutch"