Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

[The15thunter]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

This is actually a good way to look at it.. Although I don't personally know if Wade cracks the top 5 all time or not

i have wade behind jordan and kobe, and i'd say jerry west can still be put above him, but that one is close. i don't know of anyone else that is really up there.

[DukeC]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

Meh. There haven't been a ton of all-time great shooting guards in league history.

There have been great scorers, but not a lot had a great all around game.

It might be the one with the least amount of two-way (Offense and Defense) players ever

[ojandpizza]

Meh, my list would probably go as follows:

1.Jordan
2.Kobe
3.West
4.Drexler
5.Gervin
6.Iverson

7.. Wade/Maravich/Sam Jones/

Depending on what you would call the Big O.. He was more of a combo guard, much like West and Maravich were but he's often labeled as a PG.. If he's in the discussion I would move him all the way up to #2.

As far as an actual "career" goes Ray Allen is in the discussion as well. Probably right behind the Wade/Maravich/Jones category..

- Also, if you're judging by a players "peak" and how good they were in their prime, not how good they were over the course of their entire careers, then McGrady could even be above Wade.

After those guys- Monroe/Dumars/Sharman/Moncrief

After them- Miller/Richmond/Greer/Bing/Thompson

The players separated by "/" just means they are in no particular order.

That's how I would rank them.. But hey, it's all opinion anyways right?

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

The only place I see where my commas are so messed up it was worthy of a complaint is in the small sentence you quoted..

Maybe I should have used parenthesis or quotation marks? I only used commas to separate the "give me the ball and let me take over" part from the rest.. Sorry, next time I'll do better.. Maybe.

And yeah I know Reggie was the go to guy for the Pacers and almost always their leading scorer. But being the best player/leading scorer doesn't always mean you are "taking over" ball games.

Would you consider Kevin Martin, or Monta Ellis, or anybody else routinely averages 20+ ppg and leads their team in scoring, the type of guys who "take over games".?

I've saw games were Reggie had gotten hot and hit clutch 3 after clutch 3 in the 4th. But I can't recall many times where I have sat back and thought "man this guy is really taking over this game"..

Wade is the type of guy who can do that any given game. Not just when he gets the 3 ball going.

Again, to be clear, I do share your opinion in the Wade/Miller debate. I just take issue with some of the finer points being misrepresented.

It's not as if Reggie was averaging 20+ ppg just on 3 pointers. In his best scoring season of 24.6 ppg, he only got 5.8 of those ppg from behind the arc. The most points he ever produced per game from long range was 8.4 (in a 21.6 ppg season). He only made 4 threes when he scored his career high of 57. He shot over 50% from the field for four seasons in his prime, do you think 3pt shooting was responsible for that?

Is it possible that all your memories of Reggie are from the year 2000 on?

I'm not sure what your standards are for taking over a game, but Miller (and Ellis/Martin for that matter) most certainly took over games. Anyone with career highs at or around 50 points (Ellis has topped out at 48 so far, Martin 50), and multiple 40+ games (12x career for Miller, 9x to date for Ellis, 8x for Martin), is capable of "taking over a game on any given night".

Of course none of them are on the same level as Wade in that department. I'd call him an "A" level takeover player, and those 3 are "B" or "C" level. Keep in mind that any 20+ ppg scorer is a guy that opposing teams tend to focus their defensive efforts on, so when they exceed their average, it's normally in spite of a strong intent to stop them. (We could have an entirely different conversation about guys "taking over" at the expense of their team, or defenses intentionally allowing one player to score the bulk of the points in order to limit the rest of the team.)

To summarize: Don't assume Reggie Miller was only good at one thing just because it was his standout skill, and don't assume any player wasn't/isn't highly capable of something just because you can name another notably more capable player.

[ojandpizza]

Again, to be clear, I do share your opinion in the Wade/Miller debate. I just take issue with some of the finer points being misrepresented.

It's not as if Reggie was averaging 20+ ppg just on 3 pointers. In his best scoring season of 24.6 ppg, he only got 5.8 of those ppg from behind the arc. The most points he ever produced per game from long range was 8.4 (in a 21.6 ppg season). He only made 4 threes when he scored his career high of 57. He shot over 50% from the field for four seasons in his prime, do you think 3pt shooting was responsible for that?

Is it possible that all your memories of Reggie are from the year 2000 on?

I'm not sure what your standards are for taking over a game, but Miller (and Ellis/Martin for that matter) most certainly took over games. Anyone with career highs at or around 50 points (Ellis has topped out at 48 so far, Martin 50), and multiple 40+ games (12x career for Miller, 9x to date for Ellis, 8x for Martin), is capable of "taking over a game on any given night".

Of course none of them are on the same level as Wade in that department. I'd call him an "A" level takeover player, and those 3 are "B" or "C" level. Keep in mind that any 20+ ppg scorer is a guy that opposing teams tend to focus their defensive efforts on, so when they exceed their average, it's normally in spite of a strong intent to stop them. (We could have an entirely different conversation about guys "taking over" at the expense of their team, or defenses intentionally allowing one player to score the bulk of the points in order to limit the rest of the team.)

To summarize: Don't assume Reggie Miller was only good at one thing just because it was his standout skill, and don't assume any player wasn't/isn't highly capable of something just because you can name another notably more capable player.

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say.

I never said Reggie only scored from shooting 3's, or that he didn't or couldn't ever take over a game. That wasn't my point at all..

My point is, guys like Wade, have the ability to take over every single game, not just a few occasions. It doesn't have to come in the form of 40 points, or 3 clutch 3s, he can absolutely dominate an entire game, both ends, for the entire game.

I mean any player, for the most part, has the ability to take over a few games. JaVale McGee did it this year in the playoffs, Nate Robinson has done it, Steve Novak, and I mean these guys are nowhere near the level of the guys in the topic. I'm just trying to stretch my point in the difference of occasionally taking over a game, from a guy who you can expect it from night in and night out.. Which in Wades case I'm referring back a few years. I'm hoping he can return to that form this season after having his surgery.

My point about Reggie shooting 3s in my other post was simply to say that almost all the "greatest moments" of his career, or his big highlight reels, revolve around him knocking down 3 or 4 clutch 3s.. I never intended to act like that was all he could do? If it came off that way then that's my bad.

[The15thunter]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

Meh, my list would probably go as follows:

1.Jordan
2.Kobe
3.West
4.Drexler
5.Gervin
6.Iverson

7.. Wade/Maravich/Sam Jones/

drexler vs. wade is a fair argument, though i think wade would win it.

gervin played one side of the ball, wasn't a winner or much of a competitor. he was the anti-thesis of a team player and couldn't stop a soul from scoring. i don't see a valid argument for him being above wade.

the same argument goes for maravich, really.

sam jones was criticized by bill russell for never wanting the pressure of being the man. he had the ability to be one of the all-time greats, and he's still definitely a hall of famer, but the guy didn't want to be the guy. that says something to me.

wade is better than iverson. he had a better career, he's a better individual player.

[ojandpizza]

drexler vs. wade is a fair argument, though i think wade would win it.

gervin played one side of the ball, wasn't a winner or much of a competitor. he was the anti-thesis of a team player and couldn't stop a soul from scoring. i don't see a valid argument for him being above wade.

the same argument goes for maravich, really.

sam jones was criticized by bill russell for never wanting the pressure of being the man. he had the ability to be one of the all-time greats, and he's still definitely a hall of famer, but the guy didn't want to be the guy. that says something to me.

wade is better than iverson. he had a better career, he's a better individual player.

Why I picked Iverson - Iverson is probably the best scorer on this entire list not named Michael Jordan. The guy could flat out score at will from anywhere on the court. Hell even Kobe didn't catch him on the all time scoring list until Iverson had been out of the league for 2 or 3 years and they came into the league at the same time.

While you could argue Wade is bigger and maybe a better defender, you could also argue Iverson is a better ball handler, passer, shooter, and scorer..

Iverson also did something nobody on this list has done (even MJ) and that is carry a HORRIBLE team all the way to the finals. He is the ultimate "put the team on your back" type of guy. Wade and Kobe both struggled to win games when they weren't playing along other stars.

Iverson plays with more heart than probably anybody on this list not named Jordan. He gave 110% every game with no regard to his body, and he wanted to win as bad as anybody. Regular season MVP, 4 scoring titles, and 3rd all time in PPG behind Jordan and Wilt..

Sure he was a punk and liked to skip practice lol but the dude was simply amazing and uncomparable to any player ever.

Gervin - At 6-foot-8, Gervin revolutionized the position, won four scoring titles (one in the ABA, three in the NBA) and scored an NBA-record 33 points in one quarter. His artistry with the ball made him one of the most entertaining players ever. His line-drive jumper was a smooth sight, and his creativity around the basket was second to none.

He made scoring look edfortless, and posted 26ppg on 51percent shooting. He scored with flair from the outside and in the midrange and showed a delicate touch inside; his finger roll is one of the great signature shots in NBA history. He truly was one of the most unique players in league history.

He never played on a great team, but he was a great player, and an amazing scoring threat.

- Jones&Maravich-

I didn't put either of them ahead of Wade, I put them all as equals.

Pete was another one of those guys who never played on a truly great team, but in his era there was absolutely nothing he couldn't do with the ball..

People don't realize, when Pistol was in the league he was probably the best shooter, passer, and ball handler in the entire league!

Everybody loves to give praise to Reggie Miller or Ray Allen for being the "best shooters of all time" how about a 67% career average from 3PT land from Maravich.. 67% that's unheard of!

Sam Jones - while you said he was criticized for not wanting to be the guy, he was one of the best winners in league history. Playing 12 seasons and Boston and winning 10 championships.

When the Cousy/Sharman show was over in the late 50s and very early 60s the team became the Jones/Russell show.. With Havlicek later as well.. During this time Jones was the teams go to scorer (even if he didn't want to be the guy) often times he was leading the team in points per game both in the regular season and in the playoffs.. All while never logging huge minutes, that's why his points per 36minutes is even more impressive than his points per game.

While Russell may have been the guy defensively Jones was the guy offensively.

[Streaky McFloorburn]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

Everybody loves to give praise to Reggie Miller or Ray Allen for being the "best shooters of all time" how about a 67% career average from 3PT land from Maravich.. 67% that's unheard of!

Sorry, I got hooked again.

That 67% represents 10 of 15 shooting. Not exactly unheard of. The 3pt shot didn't exist until Maravich's final season.

Thanks for humoring me. Anyone know of a fact-checker job opening?

[ojandpizza]

Sorry, I got hooked again.

That 67% represents 10 of 15 shooting. Not exactly unheard of. The 3pt shot didn't exist until Maravich's final season.

Thanks for humoring me. Anyone know of a fact-checker job opening?

Actually I know exactly what it represented.. It's still his career average?

[jake44np]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

Meh, my list would probably go as follows:

1.Jordan
2.Kobe
3.West
4.Drexler
5.Gervin
6.Iverson

7.. Wade/Maravich/Sam Jones/

Depending on what you would call the Big O.. He was more of a combo guard, much like West and Maravich were but he's often labeled as a PG.. If he's in the discussion I would move him all the way up to #2.

As far as an actual "career" goes Ray Allen is in the discussion as well. Probably right behind the Wade/Maravich/Jones category..


- Also, if you're judging by a players "peak" and how good they were in their prime, not how good they were over the course of their entire careers, then McGrady could even be above Wade.

After those guys- Monroe/Dumars/Sharman/Moncrief

After them- Miller/Richmond/Greer/Bing/Thompson

The players separated by "/" just means they are in no particular order.

That's how I would rank them.. But hey, it's all opinion anyways right?

You have Gervin WAY over rated!
The guy couldn't guard his own shadow nor ever tried to.
He was a good scorer that shot damn near every time he touched the ball.
Wade is twice the player he ever was.

[ojandpizza]

You have Gervin WAY over rated!
The guy couldn't guard his own shadow nor ever tried to.
He was a good scorer that shot damn near every time he touched the ball.
Wade is twice the player he ever was.

I guess we disagree? lol twice the player huh?

[ojandpizza]

I'm not trying to say anybody is right or wrong, this is all a matter of opinion anyways..

but ESPN has Gervin at number 4 of all time and Wade missing the entire top 10:

Voters: Henry Abbott, JA Adande, Greg Anthony, Jon Barry, Chris Broussard, Ric Bucher, Jamele Hill, John Hollinger, Mark Jackson, Scoop Jackson, Tim Legler, Carlos Morales, Chris Palmer, Chris Ramsay, Jack Ramsay, Jalen Rose, Chris Sheridan, Bill Simmons, Marc Stein, and David Thorpe.

FoxSports: has Gervin at 4, Wade at 6 - no voting list..

The Hoops Manifesto: has Wade at 7, Gervin at 4.

Voting Panel: Jeff Fox (Hoops Manifesto), College Wolf and Dan Bonk (T-Wolves Blog), Phillip from Orlando Magic Daily, Diego from Hot Hot Hoops, Don from With Malice, and Ezra from Purple and Gold Blog

HoopsVibe.com: has Wade at 8, and Gervin at 4 - no voting list

Again this isn't me trying to say I'm right your not, but you saying I have him WAY overrated or that Wade is twice as good is a little extreme.

I also found a few more lists with Gervin ahead of Wade, I just decided to post these because they seemed credible. Most of the voters life's/careers revolve strictly around the NBA.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

Miller

Strength-6
Speed-8
Quickness-9
Left hand-7
Elevation-7
Creativity-8
Anticipation-7
Man-to-man defense-5
Team defense-6
Passing-6
Rebounding-5
Penetrate-7
Field goal shooting-9
Finishing-8
Handle-8
Free throws-9
Clutch-8
Average-7.23


Wade

Strength-9
Speed-10
Quickness-9
Left hand-7
Elevation-9
Creativity-9
Anticipation-8
Man to man defense-9
Team defense-7
Passing-8
Rebounding-9
Penetrate-9
Field goal shooting-6
Finishing-9
Handle-8
Free throws-7
Clutch-8
Average-8.29

[lostsoul]

Re: Dwyane Wade vs Reggie Miller?

i'm an old schooler and i watched reggie play - he's way overrated. he had a nice touch and hit some sick clutch shots, but he wasn't an all around player. d wade takes the cak here.

[ojandpizza]

i'm an old schooler and i watched reggie play - he's way overrated. he had a nice touch and hit some sick clutch shots, but he wasn't an all around player. d wade takes the cak here.

The thing about Reggie is that he really did play really great in some very big and important games. And he did have that clutch and killer instinct. I think a lot of people want to associate his entire career with how well he did play in some of those big moments.

In my eyes a couple outstanding playoffs series just aren't enough to over come the fact the rest of his career was just simply good, and not great.