2014 Off-Season Thread

[redsrule]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

lance gone, and now PG prob out the season..does hibbert get moved now?

Seriously, who gives a **** right now?

Maybe it's just me but how the Pacers are going to be is the last thing on my mind.

[AC]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

Please get better PG.

[ojandpizza]

2014 Off-Season Thread

Elite rebounding, proficient and efficient low post scoring, ability to stretch the floor, ability to have flexibility in offense, another passing big, a guy who can take the scoring load off of LeBron...



How many needs do you want?

Elite rebounding that they don't need. Thompson is 10+ per 36 minutes, Varejao given equal minutes to Love actually averages more rebound than he does. Cleveland was tied for 10th in the league in rebounding last year, 3rd in the east. That's without LeBron, and without Wiggins who at SG will more than likely average 5+ boards per game. Again Love is an amazing rebounder but that's not something Cleveland NEEDS.

Love is definitely not a proficient inside scorer. He takes almost 7 threes per game and each season spends more and more time running out to the perimeter. Only 25% of his 18 shots per game came from 3 feet and in. That's only 4 shots per game coming inside. He has good touch down low, but that doesn't matter if he refuses to go inside, same issues Miami had with needing Bosh to do a little more inside.

Also, Love doesn't even finish at a high rate inside, only 66%. If you compare that to "all they can do is dunk" guys like Deandre Jordan and Dwight Howard they finish at 72% and 74%.. Or compared to LeBron, someone who's still "figuring out" his post game 80%.. Jordan and James also finish at much higher rates than him from 3-10 feet while Dwight is equal with him at only 41%.

Yes Love is an elite scorer, and yes he can put up huge numbers when he gets the ball every trip up the court and takes nearly 20 shots, but he's never been a great inside scorer. That's always been his biggest flaw offensively, same as with Blake Griffin.. And sadly the numbers I gave for last season are actually Love's career highs from both spots, so it's not like he had an off year inside or anything either. But is overall offensive output is definitely inflated from always having the ball, shooting nearly 7 threes per game, and having an offense ran through him.

Yes he can stretch the floor. But as part of the point of my other post that can be added for so much cheaper while also addressing other areas where they actually need help. And there are actually stretch players who specialize in that and hit those shots at a higher rate than even Love does. Which also goes with what I've been saying this whole time, they don't NEED shooting. Kyrie, Waiters, Wiggins, LeBron, Bennett, Miller, Jones, they have lots of scoring power, and lots of shooters. This team IMO has more scoring power than any of those Miami teams, even without Love. Especially if this coach is really the offensive guru they say he is. They don't have a 3 headed monster like Miami did, but they also don't have inconsistent "weak" spots like Rio, Haslem, Battier.

LeBron doesn't really have a scoring "load". He only takes like 17 shots per game, he's just so damn efficient that it doesn't matter he still scores in bunches. This isn't LeBron having to drop 30 a night, Pavlovic, Moon, Parker, and no show Hughes aren't on this team. Waiters is already nearly 20 per 36, Kyrie is the primary ball handler and one of the top scorers in the league. Wiggins is there, Bennett, Thompson and Varejao both capable of 10 a game. With Varejao cutting back door I think LeBron easily gets him 6-8 alone off of his passing. He did it for Haslem and Birdman every game, and Varejao in the past. Again, this team won't NEED any help scoring.

I'll give you the passing, but even with that he's more of a outlet passer than he is a Gasol, Gasol, Noah, Blake type of passer. But he can definitely make half court passes, though you wonder how much that will matter. LeBron will obviously have the ball more than him, and Kyrie as well by default because he's the primary guard. I mean Bosh is a good passing big as well, but we've saw how little that gets displayed whenever there is two guys ahead of you. I mean a large chunk of his touches will be shots after Kyrie or LeBron collapses the defense, or popping open after Love screens for them. I don't think they would run their sets through his passing ability rather than LeBrons.

I feel like you just listed off everything Love is good at. Which me and everyone else against the trade completely understand everything he's good at. The problem is Cleveland doesn't need help in hardly any of those areas, and it's a lot of money and a lot to give up for a player when he doesn't make a weakness any better.. Like I've said before if this were a dominant post defender like Dwight, or wing defender and scorer like PG, or even an inside stud like Zach Randolph or something this trade would make much more sense. Even though Love's value and caliber is just as good or better than those guys.

Im in the camp that Superstars win championships.

You cite San Antonio. But they have 3 stars of their own (4 counting Kawhi). The Heat have won the last two prior. Ill say that Dallas is the exception to the rule (Dirk was just amazing that year). Prior to that, the Lakers and Celtics were both loaded with Star power.

Point is, history shows that talent wins.

Adding a third "go to guy" pays dividends. As Ive mentioned before, Love wouldnt necessarily be needed every night. But those other nights where a typical "Love kinda night" is in order for them to win matters. Especially in the playoffs where every game counts. That one game could be the difference between being eliminated or advancing.

Having 3 Stars makes your team very tough to beat.

If a team only has 1 guy (Minnesota-Love) and he doesnt have his best game, they probably arent winning that game.

If a team has two guys (Oklahoma-Russ/Durant), they can afford for one guy to have a night off. They still have another guy capable of carrying the scoring load and getting the W. But when both guys are off, they lose.

Having three Stars, its highly unlikely that ALL 3, will be off in a game. That makes a team tough to beat because any one of those guys can have single handedly win them the game.

Just look back to when the Bulls faced the Heat in the playoffs. I think the Bulls had the best record. Rose was MVP. They had good coaching and good role players. Played the best defense in the league.

But with Rose neutralized, they could not keep up with the Heat. I remember all three had their shining moments in that series. So even if Lebron wasnt playing like the best player on the planet, they were too much for the Bulls and their reliance on Rose and his scoring on the offensive end. That series is the perfect example.

History shows that star power wins championships.

And thats without even going into how valuable it is to have someone you can run the offense through on the block. Or if injuries hit.

If you're on the side that thinks you have to have multiple stars to win then I have no argument for you. Obviously I disagree, but there isn't really anything for me to say other than I disagree lol..

But I will say my issue with this isn't adding a 3rd star, it's at the price and the risk. The risk because Love is injury prone, the risk that he might not stay is the biggest one though. If they make the trade they'll be ok, if they don't make the trade they'll be ok. But neither is a guarantee and if they do make the trade and Love leaves they are in a much worse spot than before. Especially if the trade includes Wiggins, IMO. My concern is Love wants to be in LA, Cleveland wasn't even a thought if LeBron didn't return. So my worry is if they win it all he accomplished what he wanted and then could leave. If they lose he could have doubts and still might leave.. If he can't handle the 3rd role and criticism the way Bosh could he might leave. Nothing is promised here, where with the young guys they are here for good. And even if they don't pan out their trade stock is through the roof, especially Wiggins and Waiters, plus all the 1st they will keep.

Also the money. As I've said before he takes up so much space they are left with nothing else. They will be worse off than what Miami was in terms of extra money to spend. Yes Miami got two rings out of it, and maybe that's fine with Cleveland. But I doubt they are winning this first year with a rookie coach, and we saw what the limited cap space did to Miami. All they could add was cheap vets, every year they were older and slower, and this past year their defense took a hit as well as they were the oldest team in the playoffs. LeBron negates a lot of that, but he can't fill all the holes when a team is passing the ball and running 9 guys deep like San Antonio did.

Also you mentioned Love having the big games to win them games, Bosh was the same.. But Bosh also had goose eggs in some playoff games. He made their defense better while Love could actually hurt Cleveland's, and if Roy/West was a problem for Bosh they will be a nightmare for Love.

My point is, Bosh was a great fit for Miami. But when reduced to a 3rd option offensively his production was essentially equal to guys like Ryan Anderson, Lee, Millsap, Young, Randolph, Pau, Monroe, West, Morris.. Bosh is obviously better then all of them, but when your role is diminished your production is much easier to replace..

Hypothetically what if Miami used Bosh's massive contract to sign a player who gave the stretch shooting Ryan Anderson/Channing Frye, then more of it to solve their massive rebounding issues and a rim protector like Deandre Jordan, Robin Lopez, Omer Asik, and then still had money to add a better starting PG, or someone off the bench who wasn't pushing 40 years old like everyone else on their team..

Not saying everything would have worked out better, but their was always the argument that Miami would have been better off not signing 3 big names that all needed the ball. Bosh became a bigger reward for them because Wade was slowing down so much, but if not that money could have been spent to make that team much more well rounded. They had some big holes that needed to be filled, and it's why they were just spanked by San Antonio.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

Whyyyy Paul George

[ScoobySnax]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

Hate to see PG go down like that. Just horrible news.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

Damn man just Damn.

[MattUM]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

I hate seeing dudes get injured like this.

[OSUFan_88]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

Elite rebounding that they don't need. Thompson is 10+ per 36 minutes, Varejao given equal minutes to Love actually averages more rebound than he does. Cleveland was tied for 10th in the league in rebounding last year, 3rd in the east. That's without LeBron, and without Wiggins who at SG will more than likely average 5+ boards per game. Again Love is an amazing rebounder but that's not something Cleveland NEEDS.

Okay, so if I can replace Tristan with Kevin Love, a guy who spreads the court and can rebound at a better rate, why would I not do that? Now I can bring a better rebounder off the bench and dominate the boards.

Love is definitely not a proficient inside scorer. He takes almost 7 threes per game and each season spends more and more time running out to the perimeter. Only 25% of his 18 shots per game came from 3 feet and in. That's only 4 shots per game coming inside. He has good touch down low, but that doesn't matter if he refuses to go inside, same issues Miami had with needing Bosh to do a little more inside.

Well, when he does go inside, he's a good player. Luckily, he doesn't have to dominate the paint, just be efficient down there. Which leads us too...

Also, Love doesn't even finish at a high rate inside, only 66%. If you compare that to "all they can do is dunk" guys like Deandre Jordan and Dwight Howard they finish at 72% and 74%.. Or compared to LeBron, someone who's still "figuring out" his post game 80%.. Jordan and James also finish at much higher rates than him from 3-10 feet while Dwight is equal with him at only 41%.

With the type of shots that Love takes down low, he certainly IS efficient. He is a bull down low, and having to be the only legit scorer on the team, sometimes he didn't have the opportunity to score down low. He'll be there eventually.

Yes Love is an elite scorer, and yes he can put up huge numbers when he gets the ball every trip up the court and takes nearly 20 shots, but he's never been a great inside scorer. That's always been his biggest flaw offensively, same as with Blake Griffin.. And sadly the numbers I gave for last season are actually Love's career highs from both spots, so it's not like he had an off year inside or anything either. But is overall offensive output is definitely inflated from always having the ball, shooting nearly 7 threes per game, and having an offense ran through him.

Again, let's see how he plays when he has other legit, space opening players next to him, not Ricky Rubio and other crap.

Yes he can stretch the floor. But as part of the point of my other post that can be added for so much cheaper while also addressing other areas where they actually need help. And their are actually stretch players who specialize in that and hit those shots at a higher rate than even Love does. Which also goes with what I've been saying this whole time, they don't NEED shooting. Kyrie, Waiters, Wiggins, LeBron, Bennett, Miller, Jones, they have lots of scoring power, and lots of shooters. This team IMO has more scoring power than any of those Miami teams, even without Love. Especially if this coach is really the offensive guru they say he is. They don't have a 3 headed monster like Miami did, but they also don't have inconsistent "weak" spots like Rio, Haslem, Battier.

So what really gets weakened here if they do trade Wiggins? Let's look at this.

Right now, the depth chart looks something like this:

Kyrie/Delly/????
Wiggins/Waiters/Miller
LeBron/Miller/Wiggins
Thompson/Bennett
Andy/Haywood

Now let's assume the Cavs make the rumored trade of Bennett, Wiggins, and a 1st.

Kyrie/Delly/????
Waiters/Miller/Allen? or Jones
LeBron/Miller/Jones
Love/Thompson
Andy/Haywood

I take team two every single time. Offensively it's more balanced. I understand what you are saying, that they don't need shooters. But I totally disagree. The way you build around LeBron is to put shooters around him. It worked in Cleveland before, it worked in Miami, it worked on Team USA.

LeBron doesn't really have a scoring "load". He only takes like 17 shots per game, he's just so damn efficient that it doesn't matter he still scores in bunches. This isn't LeBron having to drop 30 a night, Pavlovic, Moon, Parker, and no show Hughes aren't on this team. Waiters is already nearly 20 per 36, Kyrie is the primary ball handler and one of the top scorers in the league. Wiggins is there, Bennett, Thompson and Varejao both capable of 10 a game. With Varejao cutting back door I think LeBron easily gets him 6-8 alone off of his passing. He did it for Haslem and Birdman every game, and Varejao in the past. Again, this team won't NEED any help scoring.

I disagree they don't need scoring. Wiggins isn't going to be a great scorer, he needs work. He has no left hand. He has limited dribbling ability. Bennett has never proven to be a scorer.

Replacing them with Love makes them an elite offensive team. Along with Waiters, Kyrie and LeBron. And when LeBron starts to fade, these other guys will still be there to replace his scoring. Why not lighten the load?

I'll give you the passing, but even with that he's more of a outlet passer than he is a Gasol, Gasol, Noah, Blake type of passer. But he can definitely make half court passes, though you wonder how much that will matter. LeBron will obviously have the ball more than him, and Kyrie as well by default because he's the primary guard. I mean Bosh is a good passing big as well, but we've saw how little that gets displayed whenever there is two guys ahead of you. I mean a large chunk of his touches will be shots after Kyrie or LeBron collapses the defense, or popping open after Love screens for them. I don't think they would run their sets through his passing ability rather than LeBrons.

He has to have the ability, unlike Thompson.

I feel like you just listed off everything Love is good at. Which me and everyone else against the trade completely understand everything he's good at. The problem is Cleveland doesn't need help in hardly any of those areas, and it's a lot of money and a lot to give up for a player when he doesn't make a weakness any better.. Like I've said before if this were a dominant post defender like Dwight, or wing defender and scorer like PG, or even an inside stud like Zach Randolph or something this trade would make much more sense. Even though Love's value and caliber is just as good or better than those guys.

And I disagree. I think the Cavaliers desperately need his big shooting. They need his ability to score anywhere from the court. They need another option, another threat. You cannot rely on LeBron and Kyrie every night or every other night. At some point you are going to need a guy with size to score *outside of LeBron*. Even if Love comes here and becomes Bosh 2.0, you need that threat.

In the end, the question is simple: Is Love better than Wiggins and Bennett? This year, he is. 5 years? Maybe. In 10 years? Probably not. But in these next 5 years, Kevin Love will give you a better opportunity to win. Kevin Love is a proven All-Star, a proven, legit 20-10 guy, no matter how you view it. And the Cavaliers need that threat.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

I think we just disagree on a lot of points. So they aren't worth the "yes he is", "no he isn't" back and forth.

But I will say this. LeBron doesn't, IMO, look best with just tons of shooters on the court. He looks at his best when guys cut back door and when there is another player to attack..

LeBron made Gooden, Big Z, Birdman, Haslem, Hickson, etc all look 10 times better on the court, simply because they understood when to cut and he understood when to hit them. When lineups with LeBron and 4 shooters hit the court 9/10 times it became stagnant as hell. Sure it worked on the rare nights Battier didn't shoot like 1 for 5, and it worked on nights when Mario was playing above his abilities. But other than that they didn't benefit anymore from having 1 shooter to space the floor than they did with 3 or 4 of them. The more Bosh played outside the worse their offense looked as well.

I'd much rather see guys who can cut, and have Kyrie break down the defense and then kick to LeBron than I would see 4 guys just standing still and hoping their man is the one who helps.. Any time Wade could beat his man and draw help, and then kick to LeBron it basically became 1 on 1 because Wade had already drew the help to his side.


Also as far as the line ups go.. Yes on paper a Kyrie, Waiters, LeBron, Love, Varejao line up looks best, offensively speaking at least...

But it's not a necessity, it hurts their bench, gives them no room for improvement, Love can leave for nothing, and it's much worse defensively.

Cleveland does not need a massive offensive boost. They averaged 98 points per game last season with what about 90% of us would consider the worst offensive coach in the league. The league leader was the Clippers at 108.. They added LeBron, Wiggins, and Kyrie, Waiters, Bennett, Thompson are all still improving.. Would Love help them scoring wise? Absolutely! But do they need extra scoring at a cost to hurting their defense? Absolutely not!

For the amount of scoring Love and Waiters would likely give up compared to Thompson, and Wiggins I don't think slight bump in scoring would matter. When the game slows down come playoff time they added defense provides a higher reward IMO.

I'm not against a trade, but I think keeping Wiggins and trading Waiters and/or Bennett for something that actually fills a hole would reward them more than adding a player just because he's a star.

[redsrule]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

How does it hurt their bench? You lose Waiters coming off the bench. Bennett is not going to suddenly get a lot of minutes. He is stuck behind Thompson at the 4 who is a better player. I think moving TT to the bench actually helps the bench.

[TMagic]

2014 Off-Season Thread

And is Bennet really good at defense or something? Where is this big hit coming from if Love is traded for?

The last thing I saw was a trade involving Love and Brewer. So Wiggins perimeter defense would be replaced by someone else who brings it defensively as well.

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

It improves their bench if Brewer and/or Mo comes with the trade, but only if Love and Varejao both stay healthy (LOL) and IF Love stays for more than one season.

Still makes more sense to me if the trade was for multiple guys that could contribute, or a dominant center rather than a PF.. They just lose depth, you can say it's as simple as losing Waiters and moving back Thompson. But they currently have LeBron, Thompson, and Bennett who can play the 4, Wiggins who can start at the 2 or be a sub for the 2 or 3, just more depth to play with.

But I'm telling you, if Love resigns in two or three years from now the rest of the roster outside of those 3 is going to be guys who are about 35 and older and they will have reached their climax and be stuck without room to grow. Or worse he could just leave and you'll lose your 3rd star along with the potential you traded for him.

[redsrule]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

It could backfire. So could keep Wiggins though. I love Wiggins and have thought he was the #1 pick since the beginning of the college season, but what if Wiggins never develops and Kyrie keeps regressing and the Cavs don't win a title? LeBron and Love are in their prime. Wiggins is nowhere near that and lolBennett.
You have a chance to get one of the BEST players in the NBA for not that much, relatively speaking. Neither Wiggins or Bennett will gut the Cavs team. I think it is a risk worth taking.

On a random side note, how much better would this Cavs team look right now if they made better picks with their 2 most recent draft selections (not counting this year). First Dion Waiters over Andre Drummond, then last year Bennett over Oladipo/Noel. Could you imagine a possible lineup of Kyrie/Oladipo/LeBron/Love/Drummond?

[turty11]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

reds you smokin something if you think cleveland could trade for love without giving up durmmond/dipo

[ojandpizza]

Re: 2014 Off-Season Thread

It could backfire. So could keep Wiggins though. I love Wiggins and have thought he was the #1 pick since the beginning of the college season, but what if Wiggins never develops and Kyrie keeps regressing and the Cavs don't win a title? LeBron and Love are in their prime. Wiggins is nowhere near that and lolBennett.
You have a chance to get one of the BEST players in the NBA for not that much, relatively speaking. Neither Wiggins or Bennett will gut the Cavs team. I think it is a risk worth taking.

On a random side note, how much better would this Cavs team look right now if they made better picks with their 2 most recent draft selections (not counting this year). First Dion Waiters over Andre Drummond, then last year Bennett over Oladipo/Noel. Could you imagine a possible lineup of Kyrie/Oladipo/LeBron/Love/Drummond?

Just Drummond over Waiters would have been absolutely huge.

If Wiggins never develops into a star they are still a top 2 team in the east with chances of reaching the finals. Which is why I don't think Love helps them enough for the price. Because neither guarantees you a championship. But trading Wiggins, and Love leaving, and them ending up with neither definitely hurts them.

Just adding LeBron makes them dangerous. Love being a star definitely helps, Wiggins being a star definitely helps. But the chance of ending up with neither of them would scare me as a GM. Because really even if all Wiggins amounts to is a 15ppg defensive player who can hit some open shots and run the break with LeBron, it could be enough.

Especially if it leaves you with the chance that Bennett improves and all your first round picks.. Even as late picks they could always turn out to be the next Redd, Manu, Parsons, Gortat, Thomas, etc.. (All 2nd round choices).