The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

**cima** · 06-07-2016, 06:53 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

I know it hasn't been said on here in particular often, but please stop with the clamoring to start Mozgov. He is garbage this year, he would be just as bad of a liability out there on D as Frye and Love have been.

**cima** · 06-07-2016, 06:55 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

From Lowe's podcast via Whiney:

This post season, the Cavs have had four games in which they ran 20 or more isolation plays. These games are the four games they've lost this post season.

Coincidence? Obviously not. But if you listened to Lue, he claims that GS' defense with the switching 1-5 makes iso ball your only option.

Should we believe this or is he just cLueless?

**wwharton** · 06-07-2016, 06:59 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Originally posted by ojandpizza

Nobody is saying he doesn't have any help though... Idk why you can't say so and so is playing like **** without it meaning "omg here we go again LeBron doesn't have help" etc...

Kyrie is playing like garbage -fact
Love is playing like garbage - fact

It's not that the team LITERALLY doesn't have adequate roster pieces for success, it's that those pieces aren't showing up and cannot compete against this particular group..

First of all, speak for yourself. Don't act like you haven't read through the same thread.

"Kyrie needs to go"
"Love needs to go"
"When are they trading for Paul"
"They can't win because they don't have a rim protector"
"Lebron needs to leave"
"Lebron would've been better with Wade in Miami"
"Kyrie and Love are mentally soft"
etc, etc, etc.

But we can talk about your comment too. It's always about the players around Lebron and never about him. You and I said they didn't need Love because he'd be reduced to exactly what he is for them right now... fact. It is possible that it's just really hard to ask players to change their game around James. The make up of the team forces players into roles they don't fit while allowing James to play "his" game.

I'd be fine if the argument was that the coaching staff wasn't getting the TEAM to work together properly. That's what Phil was praised for in Chicago and Riley for in LA. But it's not just a case of James can do no wrong and the other players around him are failing him this opportunity... that's just as much bs as saying they simply aren't good enough. They are failing collectively as a unit. And the lack of off ball movement, post presence by anyone not named Lebron and iso-ball of Kyrie are all VERY easy things to point at for individuals having bad stats. Just because Lebron is good enough to have a better looking stat sheet doesn't mean he's not part of the problem.

They can keep acting like he's above the rest of the team... fans can keep blaming all the failures on everyone else... James can keep speaking like everyone else is just there to help HIM win. And history will keep repeating itself.

**CMH** · 06-07-2016, 07:13 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Originally posted by cima

From Lowe's podcast via Whiney:

Coincidence? Obviously not. But if you listened to Lue, he claims that GS' defense with the switching 1-5 makes iso ball your only option.

Should we believe this or is he just cLueless?

It's one of the oddest things for a coach to say, in my opinion.

Every defense creates an offensive reaction. If your reaction is to give up then you're clueless as a coach.

**The 24th Letter** · 06-07-2016, 07:55 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Originally posted by wwharton

Spoiler

Originally posted by wwharton

Spoiler

I'm dying over here with the "he's got no help" talk all over again... so predictable. Just last year Delly was the "Curry Stopper" and they just needed their stars back to add to the mix to beat the Warriors. Forget the fact that different players require a completely different approach, sacrificing offense for defense, and players that just don't gel IRL when you try to force them together like a video game.

I said it years ago, teams win and all of a sudden they're full of all stars. Outside of Curry and Thompson, if the Warriors lost in the WCF or this round, everyone else would be called role players not talented enough, tough enough, or whatever else to get it done. Instead they are incredibly deep, talking about guys like Livingston, Barbosa and Iggy who all caught shade or were just overlooked on other teams.

And it's not a knock on those guys at all, it's a point about how wrong it is to talk about the lack of help James has. We had the discussion before and when the old Cavs acquired Williams and Jamison they were stat stuffers to the level of Kyrie and Love. Put them with a ball dominant superstar in an iso offense and they become spot up shooters who can't play D. Hell, even Bosh was called a bum when they lost to Dallas after having to adjust to playing with James and Wade, and he was still huge for their defense.

Now here we are again. This is exactly why some of us said it was stupid to go out and get Love... he's not used properly. His skills are reduced to being on par with Frye while his weakness (namely, defense) becomes more exposed. This Cavs team has talent... enough to go toe to toe with the Warriors even. The problem is they don't mesh as well, aren't built to mask their deficiencies against a championship caliber team, and have a horrible offensive system for who they are.

With that said, the series isn't over, and I expect them to play better at home. But if they continue to lose, I don't want to hear any more about how the King doesn't have enough help. Teams come together and players are considered better... point at the sum of the parts, not the individual pieces. Or continue with the same narrative and watch history repeat itself more.

This is all well and good if you feel this way....and I'm sure you'll get many 'amens' for it....but the problem is- no one's ever quoted in these tangents. Who is saying these things?

**DieHardYankee26** · 06-07-2016, 08:08 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

I thought there was a game tonight, this schedule sucks.

**The 24th Letter** · 06-07-2016, 08:20 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Originally posted by CMH

It's one of the oddest things for a coach to say, in my opinion.

Every defense creates an offensive reaction. If your reaction is to give up then you're clueless as a coach.

This is what he said:

Because the Warriors can switch on their rotations, they don’t double-team much and they offer little room to perimeter shooters. Lue said the Cavs did what they were supposed to in the opener, which was to take advantage of the switching until there was a mismatch.

“If you’re switching one through five, run pick-and-rolls, they’re not going to put two on the ball,” Lue said. “They’re going to switch it. If you post up, they’re coming to double team. So if you run floppy actions and J.R. is coming off pin-downs or switching out, so it leads you to play one-on-one. I thought we had the matchups we wanted when smaller guys switching onto LeBron, smaller guys are switching onto Kevin. Now we have to take advantage of it, getting to our spots, getting to our spacing, and take advantage of the junked-up defense.”

Lue pointed out that the Cavs missed opportunities by converting only 16 of the 35 shots they took at the rim, though that was in part due to the Warriors’ ball-hawking defense.

I didn't see how the starters performed game 2, so I can't speak on that, but I didn't really disagree with him when the said it. It's really not that different from what the Warriors are doing to the Cavs tbh, just much more efficiently.

You have a mismatch, go at it, dribbling in place and holding the ball just gives the defense time to rotate.

23 · 06-07-2016, 08:23 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Originally posted by DieHardYankee26

I thought there was a game tonight, this schedule sucks.

According to players they don't get enough rest, so I guess they aint complaining.

It's tomorrow then Friday.

SMH

**jeebs9** · 06-07-2016, 08:37 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Originally posted by DieHardYankee26

I thought there was a game tonight, this schedule sucks.

I was sitting here like wtf! Isn't the game suppose to be on right now.

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**ProfessaPackMan** · 06-07-2016, 08:38 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Originally posted by cima

From Lowe's podcast via Whiney:

Coincidence? Obviously not. But if you listened to Lue, he claims that GS' defense with the switching 1-5 makes iso ball your only option.

Should we believe this or is he just cLueless?

Most of us have been saying this and pointing it out all postseason. But because the 3s were falling in, hence their Offense becoming unstoppable(at times)against the Hawks/Pistons, it wasn't an issue.

And if he thought ISOBall would actually carry him to a title, than Debo Lue is even more clueless(no pun intended)than I thought and is no different than Blatt at all.

**wwharton** · 06-07-2016, 08:58 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Originally posted by The 24th Letter

This is all well and good if you feel this way....and I'm sure you'll get many 'amens' for it....but the problem is- no one's ever quoted in these tangents. Who is saying these things?

This is a fair point, but honestly I've been out of town for about a week... bc I love the finals thread I just read through it all (covering both games). I was even planning on letting the discussion pass by since I was days late, but it kept coming up, littered through.

It's poor form to throw the statement out without directing it at specific quotes, so I'll give you that. It is there for the reading though. It's a tangent based on this thread, not what I heard on other sites or the radio. And honestly, it's the same rant in response to posts in every finals thread that a Lebron lead team has lost.

**ojandpizza** · 06-07-2016, 09:17 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Originally posted by wwharton

But we can talk about your comment too. It's always about the players around Lebron and never about him. You and I said they didn't need Love because he'd be reduced to exactly what he is for them right now... fact. It is possible that it's just really hard to ask players to change their game around James. The make up of the team forces players into roles they don't fit while allowing James to play "his" game.

I'd be fine if the argument was that the coaching staff wasn't getting the TEAM to work together properly. That's what Phil was praised for in Chicago and Riley for in LA. But it's not just a case of James can do no wrong and the other players around him are failing him this opportunity... that's just as much bs as saying they simply aren't good enough. They are failing collectively as a unit. And the lack of off ball movement, post presence by anyone not named Lebron and iso-ball of Kyrie are all VERY easy things to point at for individuals having bad stats. Just because Lebron is good enough to have a better looking stat sheet doesn't mean he's not part of the problem.

They can keep acting like he's above the rest of the team... fans can keep blaming all the failures on everyone else... James can keep speaking like everyone else is just there to help HIM win. And history will keep repeating itself.

Serious question: who has acted as if James can do no wrong? Or that he's playing ungodly great while everyone else is sucking? That hasn't been said by anyone here that I've saw. If it has then my bad for asking.

Yes I said that about the Love trade before it happened.. But at the end of the day he's still not showing up. He's been in this role for two seasons now, 4 playoff series, and he's yet to be THIS bad until now. So to say he's playing poorly isn't an understatement at all, it's factual regardless of what his role is... And he's not just standing, they isolate him for posts he can't finish, his issue isn't he's asked to shoot too many 3's, because even then he's more open than he's ever been in his career and shouldn't shoot this poorly.

Plenty of people have addressed all the problems you've mentioned. Lack of proper offensive game plan, poor defense, poor shooting, LeBron not having a "LeBron" moment, etc... It's all been said. It's just ridiculously overblown when something is said about his teammate that happens to exclude his name.

As far as players being moved.. That's the same thing that's said about any team (aside the Spurs) when they have come up short multiple years. How many times have we heard that about OKC, LAC, HOU, etc.. But again people on have the extreme overreaction when it's LeBron. If someone comes in and says maybe the Clipps should move Blake nobody is jumping in with the "OMG here we go with Chris Paul excuses, I guess he needs help"...

Maybe I should just be used to it by now, but it still just baffles me I guess.

**wwharton** · 06-07-2016, 09:32 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Originally posted by ojandpizza

Serious question: who has acted as if James can do no wrong? Or that he's playing ungodly great while everyone else is sucking? That hasn't been said by anyone here that I've saw. If it has then my bad for asking.

Yes I said that about the Love trade before it happened.. But at the end of the day he's still not showing up. He's been in this role for two seasons now, 4 playoff series, and he's yet to be THIS bad until now. So to say he's playing poorly isn't an understatement at all, it's factual regardless of what his role is... And he's not just standing, they isolate him for posts he can't finish, his issue isn't he's asked to shoot too many 3's, because even then he's more open than he's ever been in his career and shouldn't shoot this poorly.

Plenty of people have addressed all the problems you've mentioned. Lack of proper offensive game plan, poor defense, poor shooting, LeBron not having a "LeBron" moment, etc... It's all been said. It's just ridiculously overblown when something is said about his teammate that happens to exclude his name.

As far as players being moved.. That's the same thing that's said about any team (aside the Spurs) when they have come up short multiple years. How many times have we heard that about OKC, LAC, HOU, etc.. But again people on have the extreme overreaction when it's LeBron. If someone comes in and says maybe the Clipps should move Blake nobody is jumping in with the "OMG here we go with Chris Paul excuses, I guess he needs help"...

Maybe I should just be used to it by now, but it still just baffles me I guess.

Well as I just said, I didn't quote anyone and that's on me so I'll leave it alone. Now that I'm caught up, I'll be sure to be more timely WHEN (yes, when) it happens again.

Point still stands though. You can say it happens with other teams all you want. But the theme is always that they lose bc James doesn't have the help. It's never that they lose as a team. It goes both ways too. GS wins with Curry scoring 11 and people question him as MVP... CLE loses with James going 28 and 8 and it's everyone failing James. In both cases the teams played and the players did what they did to contribute to winning or losing. James and his 8 turnovers didn't do any of these guys any favors while they were standing around the perimeter. To HIS credit, he admitted as much.

**ojandpizza** · 06-07-2016, 09:39 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Right and the turnovers from him have been mentioned, lots about him has. Which is part of the reason why I'm confused on how he's been the anti-blame in this particular discussion.

As far as the trading players, I'll give you that. But if people legitimately feel this team (yes team which includes LeBron lol) isn't good enough to win a ring in the near future why wouldn't the idea of trades be brought up? It's not like anyone would suggest trading LeBron, and Kyrie/Love are the only two who could bring anything of value back.

At the end of the day I think that stuff is more of a "what if" situation anyways, like you see with a lot of teams around here claiming they should blow it up every year that isn't a championship (like its that easy).. I don't think any of it is meant to literally be taken as "everyone but LeBron sucks, trade them all".. Just like it isn't with KD and OKC, CP3 in LAC, etc. It just seems as if that's how the LeBron specific claims are always interpreted though.

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**cima** · 06-07-2016, 09:47 PM

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Originally posted by wwharton

Well as I just said, I didn't quote anyone and that's on me so I'll leave it alone. Now that I'm caught up, I'll be sure to be more timely WHEN (yes, when) it happens again.

Point still stands though. You can say it happens with other teams all you want. But the theme is always that they lose bc James doesn't have the help. It's never that they lose as a team. It goes both ways too. GS wins with Curry scoring 11 and people question him as MVP... CLE loses with James going 28 and 8 and it's everyone failing James. In both cases the teams played and the players did what they did to contribute to winning or losing. James and his 8 turnovers didn't do any of these guys any favors while they were standing around the perimeter. To HIS credit, he admitted as much.

You know it's funny because people (myself included) had been waiting for a "LeBron game" to happen...but the truth is, and it pains me that this is reality now, he's been TRYING and he just can't. Granted it's only been 2 games but some of those TOs were from him just trying to score the same way he always has, problem is GS can defend him properly. He looks like he aged quite a bit this postseason. And in the last game, with no one other than Richard Jefferson doing anything, he really didn't have much of a choice other than to try and do it himself. Coach cLueless isn't doing any them any favors either. You could argue that David Blatt may have been better suited at this stage.

The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

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