Jones Tarver 3

[JohnJohnson]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

i can't say reflexes was roys undoing, i think it has to do with lack of respect and preparation.....while these guys trained, he played semi pro ball on the day of fights. no gameplan for roy is what got him knocked out.

That's not true. Roy just likes to say that "I can't get up for a fight with a fighter of his caliber". It's BS, when you get KO'd by a fighter of "his caliber", you're lying if you said you couldn't get up for it. He trains as hard as anyone and it shows. He just was in the ring with a guy that plays into his weaknesses.

Antonio Tarver would have gave Roy fits at any point during Roy's career.

Roy's undoing was the level of his opposition, it's simple as that. He's a great fighter and deserves to be regarded as one, but he's not in a class of his own nor was he ever. People just liked to buy into that belief. He was a top fighter. He's still a top fighter if he's fighting the right level of competition, but he needs to just get out of the ring. There's nothing left to prove.

[marq]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

After reading this thread, it seems that there are a lot of RJJ haters out there, and that's people's perogative. However, it would be wrong to take away from the man's legacy. Yes he lost to Tarver twice and Johnson once, but he fought them AFTER he dropped 25 pounds of muscle from the Heavyweight division at age 34! That is physically too much for the body to handle. Most fighters go up in weight as they age, not down, which is why he accomplished what no other fighter had done in either 50 or 100 years (can't remember) by reclaiming a title after dropping to a lower weightclass. He really had no business fighting Tarver, as he should've stayed at heavyweight. It's way too much on the body to lose weight like that without shortening your career. And yes, Ruiz is a terrible heavyweight, but he hasn't lost a fight in years (not including the reversed Toney decision). The Jones you have seen in the last four fights is clearly a shell of his former self. He relied on his athleticism during his career which fades with age, and we all know that a boxer can age in one night. See: Ali, Hopkins, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Holmes, Leonard...etc. The only fighter who knew when to stop was Marciano after a great scare in the ring for him. JOnes was not technical in the sense that most boxers are: he didn't regularly use a jab, he punched from various angles, and he did more ducking, swaying and dodging than blocking. Point is, all fighters hang on way too long and as a boxing fan, it is tough to see them in the ring a shell of their former selves. When people regard a fighter's place in history, they mostly discuss boxers in the prime of their career, and during Roy's prime, he was simply the best pound-for-pound of his era (Ring Magazine's Fighter of the Decade 1990's). And this is from a boxing fan in general, so please save the unnecessary comments.

[thelwig14]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

I'm not bashing Toney, but a positive steroids test takes him out of the equation.

I've watched Vitali fight, and I'm not terribly impressed. For his size, he shouldn't have the trouble he does with many of the smaller fighters he faces. He's a good fighter, but not A list, in my opinion.

We must be watching a different Vitali then. No where in his career has Vitali struggled with smaller fighters. The only instance possible for debate is the Byrd fight, but retired due to injury and had a huge lead on points. Vitali systematically destroys his opponents and is a freak. He is a 6'7 250 pound monster who has a great chin, great jab, great balance, throws punches like a middleweight, and rarely clinches. The only way Rahman wins or stays competitive will be because of Vitalis ring rust.

[thelwig14]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

About Vitali, he was knocked down in the amatuers by Oleg Maskaev. He lost the fight and may have been stopped, but he was definitely knocked down.


edit: I found this from an interview with Maskaev. Basically says that Vitali wasn't technically knocked down but the fight was stopped.

Boxinginsider.com: When you fought Vitali, when was that?

Oleg Maskaev: "I believe it was in 1991, it was an army tournament in Tashkent, that was part of Russia."

Boxinginsider.com: What happened in that fight?

Oleg Maskaev:"I hurt him three times. And his trainer throw in the towel in the middle of the ring."

Boxinginsider.com: What round?

Oleg Maskaev:"First round."

Boxinginsider.com: What punch did you hurt him with?

Oleg Maskaev:"Left hook. Three times, same left hook."

Boxinginsider.com: Did he go down?

Oleg Maskaev: "He was on the canvas. But the referee, he didn't count it. He say I didn't turn it (the punch) over (properly technique-wise), that's why."

Boxinginsider.com: Sounds like the referee was on his side.

Oleg Maskaev: "I believe so [smiles]."

Vitali has never been knocked down. His kickboxing background gives him an great advantage because he had to develop a strong core and balance to absorb leg kicks.

[thelwig14]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

Vitali is an "A" list heavyweight, I agree. But it's only because of the current state of the heavyweight division.

James Toney has never been hurt in the boxing ring. He's the most naturally gifted fighter in the sport. He slips jabs better than anyone. I don't think Vitali's jab would be any different. It'd be a tough fight for the 5'9 Toney to win, but it's not impossible. If he were to fight Vitali and win, you'd have to regard him as *gasp* possibly the best ever.

Vitali would be an A list fighter in any era due to his complete package. Certain fighters in the history of boxing, more or less, had complete packages and Vitali is in that category regardless of the current state of heavyweights.

Toney is good, but I do not think he would even be competitive with Vitali. Toney has yet to fight a true heavyweight and Toney is excellent on the inside. However, Vitali would never put himself in a position to be on the inside against Toney. It would be a lopsided fight. Vitali would stay on the outside and pepper him for 10 rounds until the ref stopped it.

[mr_president]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

Vitali would be an A list fighter in any era due to his complete package. Certain fighters in the history of boxing, more or less, had complete packages and Vitali is in that category regardless of the current state of heavyweights.

i completely disagree, he would have been destroyed in the ali,frazier,foreman era, larry holmes would have eaten him alive.

[mr_president]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

After reading this thread, it seems that there are a lot of RJJ haters out there, and that's people's perogative. However, it would be wrong to take away from the man's legacy. Yes he lost to Tarver twice and Johnson once, but he fought them AFTER he dropped 25 pounds of muscle from the Heavyweight division at age 34! That is physically too much for the body to handle. Most fighters go up in weight as they age, not down, which is why he accomplished what no other fighter had done in either 50 or 100 years (can't remember) by reclaiming a title after dropping to a lower weightclass. He really had no business fighting Tarver, as he should've stayed at heavyweight. It's way too much on the body to lose weight like that without shortening your career. And yes, Ruiz is a terrible heavyweight, but he hasn't lost a fight in years (not including the reversed Toney decision). The Jones you have seen in the last four fights is clearly a shell of his former self. He relied on his athleticism during his career which fades with age, and we all know that a boxer can age in one night. See: Ali, Hopkins, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, Holmes, Leonard...etc. The only fighter who knew when to stop was Marciano after a great scare in the ring for him. JOnes was not technical in the sense that most boxers are: he didn't regularly use a jab, he punched from various angles, and he did more ducking, swaying and dodging than blocking. Point is, all fighters hang on way too long and as a boxing fan, it is tough to see them in the ring a shell of their former selves. When people regard a fighter's place in history, they mostly discuss boxers in the prime of their career, and during Roy's prime, he was simply the best pound-for-pound of his era (Ring Magazine's Fighter of the Decade 1990's). And this is from a boxing fan in general, so please save the unnecessary comments.

sugar ray leonard came out of retirement,defeated hagler for the middleweight crown, then he went up to lightheavyweight and defeated donnie lalonde for the light heavyweight title, then he came back down and fought hearns to a draw, and then defeated duran for the supermiddleweight crown...he was later defeated by a younger,faster terry norris....roy was beaten by older,slower fighters,supposidly less calliber fighters. roy didn't have to duck and run to fight a fluff heavyweight in ruiz, he had tarver waiting and begging for a chance for years, he had hopkins calling him out, just screaming his name, and a few other fighters that he ran from.

[JohnJohnson]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

Vitali would be an A list fighter in any era due to his complete package. Certain fighters in the history of boxing, more or less, had complete packages and Vitali is in that category regardless of the current state of heavyweights.

Toney is good, but I do not think he would even be competitive with Vitali. Toney has yet to fight a true heavyweight and Toney is excellent on the inside. However, Vitali would never put himself in a position to be on the inside against Toney. It would be a lopsided fight. Vitali would stay on the outside and pepper him for 10 rounds until the ref stopped it.

You're not going to see Toney get stopped. He might lose a decision to the giant, but he wouldn't get stopped.

[JohnJohnson]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

sugar ray leonard came out of retirement,defeated hagler for the middleweight crown, then he went up to lightheavyweight and defeated donnie lalonde for the light heavyweight title, then he came back down and fought hearns to a draw, and then defeated duran for the supermiddleweight crown...he was later defeated by a younger,faster terry norris....roy was beaten by older,slower fighters,supposidly less calliber fighters. roy didn't have to duck and run to fight a fluff heavyweight in ruiz, he had tarver waiting and begging for a chance for years, he had hopkins calling him out, just screaming his name, and a few other fighters that he ran from.

Roy Jones fans are always going to hang on to what they THINK he once WAS.

There's no use arguing with them, they're always going to come up with another excuse. They have a unalterable love, not dissimilar from my love for Jesus Christ.

[JohnJohnson]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

Vitali has never been knocked down. His kickboxing background gives him an great advantage because he had to develop a strong core and balance to absorb leg kicks.

Doesn't sound like he absorbed those left hooks from Maskaev too well. He better fight a smart fight against Rahman. Rahman has a good job and a great straight right behind it. If he doesn't fight a disciplined fight, he might get dropped. I doubt he's taking Rahman lightly though, that'd be a huge mistake.

[edaddy]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

That punch wasn't only perfect and perfectly executed, it was perfectly timed. Jones commited to his punch and Tarver was able to eat it and land his own almost simultaneously. It was just the perfect punch and would have caught Roy at any time in his career.

Glen Johnson fought his usual style, that's not the point I was making. It was a determined man in the ring with Roy Jones that night. Glen Johnson wasn't going out of that ring the loser. He wasn't going to leave that one up to the judges. The pace that he was able to maintain and the level of boxing was a step up from any fight he's ever had. That was the best you will ever see Glen Johnson look and there's not a light heavy in the world that would have beat him that night.

Glen Johnson had no chance against Bernard Hopkins because Hopkins is an AMAZING boxer. He doesn't rely on reflexes or hand speed, he relies on his ability to box smartly. Do it from the inside and do it from the outside. Nothing a fighter can do is going to throw Hopkins off, he can adapt during the fight. Glen Johnson could fight Hopkins 100 times and lose every time. Hopkins just has his number. That fight could have been very discouraging for Glen Johnson, but rather than just give up. He remained determined to get a belt but decided to do it at a heavier weight class. And I think Glen Johnson, late in his career or not, has finally found the weight class that best suits him. 175 is perfect for Glen.

It was the same Johnson that was stopped by Hopkins. But that was the only time in his career that Johnson had been completely outclassed. Hopkins isn't a bad guy to get outclassed by. That's a hall of fame fighter.

Again I disagree ....Johnson has been outclassed several times during his career you need to check his record....also I beleive if they fought now at a catch weight Johnson would beat Hopkins simply because Hopkins wouldn't be able to stand the pace..Perfectly timed punch by Tarver...cmon even he was suprised he landed it...like I said 5-10 years ago that same punch misses Roy by inches but now it lands and you see the result..Please make sure you hit me when Taylor outhustles Hopkins again...

[JohnJohnson]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

Again I disagree ....Johnson has been outclassed several times during his career you need to check his record....also I beleive if they fought now at a catch weight Johnson would beat Hopkins simply because Hopkins wouldn't be able to stand the pace..Perfectly timed punch by Tarver...cmon even he was suprised he landed it...like I said 5-10 years ago that same punch misses Roy by inches but now it lands and you see the result..Please make sure you hit me when Taylor outhustles Hopkins again...

When has Glen Johnson ever been outclassed? He's lost of lot of close decisions. But he was DOMINATED and then stopped by Bernard. There's a big difference. There's a difference between losing bull**** decisions in another fighter's backyard and getting dominated from start to finish. Hopkins has been the only fighter ever to outclass Glen.

I'm picking the 40 year old to win the rematch, just as I felt he won the first fight. Hopkins got into a habit of doing JUST enough to win the rounds, but the judges were looking to give the fight to the young guy and he lost. I'll definitely be back here for the fight though, don't worry about that. I'll be here for Castillo-Corrales and Rahman-Vitali as well.

And again about the Tarver punch, it was perfectly timed, perfectly executed. Everything about it was perfect. It was thrown with conviction. Whether Tarver expected to land it or not is not the point. He threw it, he threw it perfectly, he threw it at the perfect time, and it landed perfectly. Not a thing about it wasn't perfect. That punch hits Roy Jones at any point during Jones' career.

[thelwig14]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

Doesn't sound like he absorbed those left hooks from Maskaev too well. He better fight a smart fight against Rahman. Rahman has a good job and a great straight right behind it. If he doesn't fight a disciplined fight, he might get dropped. I doubt he's taking Rahman lightly though, that'd be a huge mistake.

He was roughly 20 years old and still developing as a fighter. Even so, Maskaev has more talent than Rahman. Vitali will take Rahman seriously and will fight a disciplined fight, but ring rust can still come into play.

[thelwig14]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

You're not going to see Toney get stopped. He might lose a decision to the giant, but he wouldn't get stopped.

Because Vitali would not come in close, there would be a high probability that the fight would be stopped by the ref before the 12th round is up. Vitali would stay on the outside and pepper him all night.

[thelwig14]

Re: Jones Tarver 3

i completely disagree, he would have been destroyed in the ali,frazier,foreman era, larry holmes would have eaten him alive.

Aside from the fact that Vitali would dwarf those fighters, Vitali has the necessary complete package to compete or beat any all-time fighter (especially Frazier, with the Foreman blueprint being used in full effect). Great ones all have a complete package, and certain attributes inside them would always give them an opportunity to win or compete on any given night against any great one (Evander-Heart, Ali-Speed, Holmes-Jab, Foreman-Power, Lennox-Jab, etc......).