How is outside fighting considered OP?

[ZHunter1990]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

So apparently memorizing combos takes more skill than distance management.

Ask ANY pro that plays traditional arcade fighters and they will laugh.

Im glad it’s been confirmed that the issue is we have some dudes that would prefer the game cater to their specific style vs being balanced.

“Running” should be a viable tactic but take skill to implement.

I just want a balanced MMA game that represents all styles vs being a Justin Gaethje Simulator. I love Gaethje but I also love Edgar, Aldo, Thompson and think their styles should replicable.

I dont know who said combo memorization requires more skill than distance managament. If dustance management required skill by requiring precise timing, constant correct reads, constant active inputs, and had an inherent risk vs. reward. Sure, add it! However, that would likely require much more work than a patch in, imo.I could be wrong though.

"Running should be a viable tactic but take skill to implement"
Thats just it, currently fighting off your backfoot and planting with stationary combos vs. an aggressive opponent is the less skilled route. Because it nets you insanely good benefits compared to the risk. The same for backdashing.

Skill shines in activity in just about every game. Take PUBG or Fortnite for example, someone who engages in battles constantly is presumed to have more skill than someone who prones and crawls into safe zones engaging as little as possible until there is 1 opponent left.

For some reason Aholbert likes to get caught up in semantics instead of focusing on the actual point. You can call it whatever you like, running, flabbing, dancing, whatever. Not engaging after you rack up a few strikes and fighting on the backfoot until your opponent comes forward with forward moving strikes and countering with stationary strikes is very strong in the meta right now.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I dont know who said combo memorization requires more skill than distance managament. If dustance management required skill by requiring precise timing, constant correct reads, constant active inputs, and had an inherent risk vs. reward. Sure, add it! However, that would likely require much more work than a patch in, imo.I could be wrong though.

"Running should be a viable tactic but take skill to implement"
Thats just it, currently fighting off your backfoot and planting with stationary combos vs. an aggressive opponent is the less skilled route. Because it nets you insanely good benefits compared to the risk. The same for backdashing.

Skill shines in activity in just about every game. Take PUBG or Fortnite for example, someone who engages in battles constantly is presumed to have more skill than someone who prones and crawls into safe zones engaging as little as possible until there is 1 opponent left.

Sorry if I offended you. Just going by Alholbert’s post. I think we should keep this to fighting and sports games since those are the genres this game fits in. Trying to compare across genres is apples to oranges.

Watch some EVO fights from pretty much any fighting game and the picture is usually clear that volume isnt necessarily rewarded. It’s all about distance, timing, countering, and opening people up with 50/50s. Even other sport titles is usually about clock control vs just trying to shoot or score as quickly as you can.

“Running” if implemented correctly would have a risk/reward. The way I’d envision it would be

1) You’d only be able to successfully maintain distance with a significant footwork advantage
2) There is a mechanic that allows lateral movement so the aggressor can effectively cut the cage
3) I would LOVE some cage stumbling animations if guys are pushed to the cage and attempt to lunge or use any special movement(with additional stamina tax)
4) The judging heavily favors damage so the game rewards you in that way already.

Something like this would mean against Stephen Thompson it’d be hard to walk him down but you could cut him off and force exhanges that way.

But against the majority of the fighters you could still walk down since their footwork wouldnt be high enough for “running” to be an effective strategy.

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I dont know who said combo memorization requires more skill than distance managament. If dustance management required skill by requiring precise timing, constant correct reads, constant active inputs, and had an inherent risk vs. reward. Sure, add it! However, that would likely require much more work than a patch in, imo.I could be wrong though.

"Running should be a viable tactic but take skill to implement"
Thats just it, currently fighting off your backfoot and planting with stationary combos vs. an aggressive opponent is the less skilled route. Because it nets you insanely good benefits compared to the risk. The same for backdashing.

Skill shines in activity in just about every game. Take PUBG or Fortnite for example, someone who engages in battles constantly is presumed to have more skill than someone who prones and crawls into safe zones engaging as little as possible until there is 1 opponent left.

For some reason Aholbert likes to get caught up in semantics instead of focusing on the actual point. You can call it whatever you like, running, flabbing, dancing, whatever. Not engaging after you rack up a few strikes and fighting on the backfoot until your opponent comes forward with forward moving strikes and countering with stationary strikes is very strong in the meta right now.

1. Your forgetting the importance of footwork, you need the footwork to move away from danger, move away from the power side or what max does and that is to smother the powerside.
2. What, so being stationary = running to you haha.
3. So skill isnt shown in accuracy, distance managment and defense only in offense? Do you not appreciate the work of wonderboy or gustaffson? Or lets be honest anyone in the UFC who fights outside of range.
4. Well no-wonder he focusses on semantics when you have no idea of what the point is and talk about other things. You make arguements on other things other than the point itself.
5. No you cant call it whatever you want, thats changing the definition of something to suit your argument, outside fighting has a clear definition, ive posted several, they all have the same key princples.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Sorry if I offended you. Just going by Alholbert’s post. I think we should keep this to fighting and sports games since those are the genres this game fits in. Trying to compare across genres is apples to oranges.

Watch some EVO fights from pretty much any fighting game and the picture is usually clear that volume isnt necessarily rewarded. It’s all about distance, timing, countering, and opening people up with 50/50s. Even other sport titles is usually about clock control vs just trying to shoot or score as quickly as you can.

“Running” if implemented correctly would have a risk/reward. The way I’d envision it would be

1) You’d only be able to successfully maintain distance with a significant footwork advantage
2) There is a mechanic that allows lateral movement so the aggressor can effectively cut the cage
3) I would LOVE some cage stumbling animations if guys are pushed to the cage and attempt to lunge or use any special movement(with additional stamina tax)
4) The judging heavily favors damage so the game rewards you in that way already.

Something like this would mean against Stephen Thompson it’d be hard to walk him down but you could cut him off and force exhanges that way.

But against the majority of the fighters you could still walk down since their footwork wouldnt be high enough for “running” to be an effective strategy.

Ok, lets compare it to the grappling then.
Someone who holds you down in half guard, baby punching until the round ends to get a W on the scorecards is not as skillful as someone who takes every opportunity to finish you on the ground and stays active, effectively. Right?

Because essentially thats what a runner is doing. Taking the easier, more consistent route to victory.

[johnmangala]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Pretty clear there are people that find outside fighting OP and others that find inside fighting OP.

We should have more tools to improve both like lateral sprinting, TD against the cage being more reliable, and lunges without delay when chaining with other techniques, etc.

To cut off or circle the cage it's undeniable footwork is crucial to the process. So adding footwork tools to balance both is what is needed.

The pawing could have a greater role in this imo if it it fully mobile and tied to grappling so we could cut off or circle the cage better.

[aholbert32]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I dont know who said combo memorization requires more skill than distance managament. If dustance management required skill by requiring precise timing, constant correct reads, constant active inputs, and had an inherent risk vs. reward. Sure, add it! However, that would likely require much more work than a patch in, imo.I could be wrong though.

"Running should be a viable tactic but take skill to implement"
Thats just it, currently fighting off your backfoot and planting with stationary combos vs. an aggressive opponent is the less skilled route. Because it nets you insanely good benefits compared to the risk. The same for backdashing.

Skill shines in activity in just about every game. Take PUBG or Fortnite for example, someone who engages in battles constantly is presumed to have more skill than someone who prones and crawls into safe zones engaging as little as possible until there is 1 opponent left.

For some reason Aholbert likes to get caught up in semantics instead of focusing on the actual point. You can call it whatever you like, running, flabbing, dancing, whatever. Not engaging after you rack up a few strikes and fighting on the backfoot until your opponent comes forward with forward moving strikes and countering with stationary strikes is very strong in the meta right now.

Huh?

I actually explained your argument better than you. LOL. You and Solid have done a pretty solid job of either throwing out statements that stray from the point or changing the original point of the thread to what you want it to be.

The definition of running is important. One, because in the argument that you and others have been making , its changed ALOT over the past 45 days. Two, because when people here the term "running" in an MMA sense, they dont think of someone fighting off of their back foot.

So if you say someone is "running", they tend to think its someone who is barely engaging and being strictly defensive. Now you and I have both made it clear that you guys mean it to apply to anyone who is primarily on their back foot and using counters.

So maybe you should say you are anti "counter fighters"?

You guys also got a taste of their favorite go to argument. I swear I've heard so much about PUBG or Fortnite or Rainbow Six or any number of online games that arent sports when it comes to supporting their argument. Why?

You can disregard a realism argument if you use games that arent based in the real world. For example, with damn near EVERY sports game at OS, when someone discusses an addition or removal of a feature its always based first in realism. Because we want to see the things we are seeing on TV, in the actual game. Even something like Wrestling (which is predetermined) has plenty of discussions about realism when talking about features.

If we were looking at UFC as a sports game...the discussion about outside fighting would begin there. It would be as simple as "Outside fighting isnt that difficult in real life, players are complaining about how difficult it is here so lets discuss a way to fix this".

But when its not analyzed as a sports game, you can look at it strictly from a balance perspective. You can say "My top players are annoyed by someone who keeps distance and "point fights" so let me change that"

I could go into more details about why they also use that argument but I'll keep it focused on the discussion at hand.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Ok, lets compare it to the grappling then.
Someone who holds you down in half guard, baby punching until the round ends to get a W on the scorecards is not as skillful as someone who takes every opportunity to finish you on the ground and stays active, effectively. Right?

Because essentially thats what a runner is doing. Taking the easier, more consistent route to victory.

I’m trying to understand your definition of “skill” here. If someone is able to hold you down there’s clearly skill in denying all of your transitions. If they arent being stood up then that means they’re also posturing up at least occasionally and succeeding in faking you out to do so.

“Taking the easier, more consistent route to victory” is something every single top player does. I mean isnt that the point? You all use what’s most effective in terms of meta. You all use the highest rated characters in the game. Should I argue you guys arent as skilled if you cant win with mid tier guys or without relying on hard combos?

I just want more styles to be viable depending on the fighter you’re using. I’d love for it to take skill to maintain distance at either range.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Pretty clear there are people that find outside fighting OP and others that find inside fighting OP.

We should have more tools to improve both like lateral sprinting, TD against the cage being more reliable, and lunges without delay when chaining with other techniques, etc.

To cut off or circle the cage it's undeniable footwork is crucial to the process. So adding footwork tools to balance both is what is needed.

The pawing could have a greater role in this imo if it it fully mobile and tied to grappling so we could cut off or circle the cage better.

Is it possible to add such an in depth system and completely balance it with the resources and time available is the question. I genuinely dont know, but that seems like a very tall order for a patch.

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Ok, lets compare it to the grappling then.
Someone who holds you down in half guard, baby punching until the round ends to get a W on the scorecards is not as skillful as someone who takes every opportunity to finish you on the ground and stays active, effectively. Right?

Because essentially thats what a runner is doing. Taking the easier, more consistent route to victory.

No no no. Holding you down and making you defend is a style, what do you mean baby punching, if there is no activitly the ref would stand you up irl. Being active and not affect gets zero points, plus opens more rooms for mistakes and more chance to loose. Holding somone in half guard for a whole round takes more skill than someone whos active and makes lots of mistakes and loose exchanges, the skill there is in fight iq.

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Is it possible to add such an in depth system and completely balance it with the resources and time available is the question. I genuinely dont know, but that seems like a very tall order for a patch.

Yes, cause guess what, there is balance irl. What happens when an outside fighter gets caught, woodley vs wonderboy round 4 is a perfect example of this. Real life mma has balance. This is why making a game about balance is flawed, MMA itself is balanced.

[aholbert32]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Sorry if I offended you. Just going by Alholbert’s post. I think we should keep this to fighting and sports games since those are the genres this game fits in. Trying to compare across genres is apples to oranges.

Watch some EVO fights from pretty much any fighting game and the picture is usually clear that volume isnt necessarily rewarded. It’s all about distance, timing, countering, and opening people up with 50/50s. Even other sport titles is usually about clock control vs just trying to shoot or score as quickly as you can.

“Running” if implemented correctly would have a risk/reward. The way I’d envision it would be

1) You’d only be able to successfully maintain distance with a significant footwork advantage
2) There is a mechanic that allows lateral movement so the aggressor can effectively cut the cage
3) I would LOVE some cage stumbling animations if guys are pushed to the cage and attempt to lunge or use any special movement(with additional stamina tax)
4) The judging heavily favors damage so the game rewards you in that way already.

Something like this would mean against Stephen Thompson it’d be hard to walk him down but you could cut him off and force exhanges that way.

But against the majority of the fighters you could still walk down since their footwork wouldnt be high enough for “running” to be an effective strategy.

The bold is important. They know that. Zack knows that. So do the others. They still win ALOT currently.

I asked them how many fights were they losing to these "runners" and they admitted its not a large amount. In fact one of them admitted that in 20 fights since the patch, they ran into runners 6 times (30%) and out of all of those games they lost once.

Now I look at that as a diverse meta. I see aggressive fighters (70% according to that small sample) and point/counter fighters. I see them dominating no matter what.

They dont see that way. They arent satisfied with winning a decision because its not enjoyable and chasing is annoying. Playing the stamina game is annoying (which is a legit point).

[johnmangala]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Is it possible to add such an in depth system and completely balance it with the resources and time available is the question. I genuinely dont know, but that seems like a very tall order for a patch.

I agree there are some things that are definitely better suited for EA UFC 4, such as transition based subs, scrambles, traps, revamped parries etc.

But things like lateral sprinting, mobile pawing with grappling tie in, and delayless lunges can be addressed with a patch imo. They address the very issues most this community are annoyed with.

Cage cutting and circling are two sides of the same coin as I see it, so tools regarding footwork is the key to fixing these issues as I see it.

[aholbert32]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I agree there are some things that are definitely better suited for EA UFC 4, such as transition based subs, scrambles, traps, revamped parries etc.

But things like lateral sprinting, mobile pawing with grappling tie in, and delayless lunges can be addressed with a patch imo. They address the very issues most this community are annoyed with.

Cage cutting and circling are two sides of the same coin as I see it, so tools regarding footwork is the key to fixing these issues as I see it.

They arent but you are assuming what the community wants trumps what top level fighters want. I honestly dont know where the devs will land but its a question that needs to be answered.

What do you do when your top level players are arguing that one thing needs to be nerfed while the realism community feels the same thing should be buffed?

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1yF9hgleqI&t=44s

is this what you mean by running hahah, i wonder

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

They arent but you are assuming what the community wants trumps what top level fighters want. I honestly dont know where the devs will land but its a question that needs to be answered.

What do you do when your top level players are arguing that one thing needs to be nerfed while the realism community feels the same thing should be buffed?

Top level players are irrelevant, they want something that caters to them. Anything that changes the game is frowned upon unless it benifits them, like the health regen bug, they hated that so much the esfl was cancelled even though it made the game more realistic. #

This form and the discord are full of the elite players of the game that are very vocal about the game. I wonder what the offline audience want, i would place bets that realism trumps all as guess what, this is a sports game.