How is outside fighting considered OP?

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

One point i think your missing is MMA in real life is balanced. Everything has an negative to it or something to overcome it.

I think MMA is completely unbalanced and that's what makes it great, UD3 was an example of this.

Example, Matt Brown v Demian Maia.
Maia schooled brown in BJJ, utterly schooled him, took his back in more ways you'd think possible, and Matt basically had a punchers chance.

I don't think that's balanced, a fight where you have to avoid the ground game of your opponent because he is THAT much better than yours.
It's realistic, but it isn't balanced.

And the reason I saw UD3 did this was because you couldn't say, Grapple Big Nog with Cro Cop, it was just too hard, the skill gap was too much.

Not balanced, but realistic.

Balanced, to me, is UFC 3, where Saki can take DC down and do work because its more about the players skill than it is the representation of the fighters stats that dictates effectiveness, among other things.

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I think MMA is completely unbalanced and that's what makes it great, UD3 was an example of this.

Example, Matt Brown v Demian Maia.
Maia schooled brown in BJJ, utterly schooled him, took his back in more ways you'd think possible, and Matt basically had a punchers chance.

I don't think that's balanced, a fight where you have to avoid the ground game of your opponent because he is THAT much better than yours.
It's realistic, but it isn't balanced.

And the reason I saw UD3 did this was because you couldn't say, Grapple Big Nog with Cro Cop, it was just too hard, the skill gap was too much.

Not balanced, but realistic.

Balanced, to me, is UFC 3, where Saki can take DC down and do work because its more about the players skill than it is the representation of the fighters stats that dictates effectiveness, among other things.

Lets use the example you gave, matt brown is a very good striker, its unbalanced in that department in favour of him, so it is balanced. The counter to maias style is having good wrestling. When you get to the top levels in mma minor differences seperate the top competitors.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I’m trying to understand your definition of “skill” here. If someone is able to hold you down there’s clearly skill in denying all of your transitions. If they arent being stood up then that means they’re also posturing up at least occasionally and succeeding in faking you out to do so.

“Taking the easier, more consistent route to victory” is something every single top player does. I mean isnt that the point? You all use what’s most effective in terms of meta. You all use the highest rated characters in the game. Should I argue you guys arent as skilled if you cant win with mid tier guys or without relying on hard combos?

I just want more styles to be viable depending on the fighter you’re using. I’d love for it to take skill to maintain distance at either range.

Does it really take skill to hold someone in half guard round after round? Or just patience? I could teach anyone how to do it, with relative ease. And remember, the devs actually patched the ref stand up logic recently. Because of complaints.

I would also agree that people selecting the highest rated fighters all the time vs. people who do not requires less skill for sure. Thats why Im against the blind pick for ranked.

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Does it really take skill to hold someone in half guard round after round? Or just patience? I could teach anyone how to do it, with relative ease. And remember, the devs actually patched the ref stand up logic recently. Because of complaints.

I would also agree that people selecting the highest rated fighters all the time vs. people who do not requires less skill for sure. Thats why Im against the blind pick for ranked.

Yes it does, otherwise youd see fighters being held down every single fight. Can you show me an example of jones or khabib being held down round after round?

[ZHunter1990]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Yes it does, otherwise youd see fighters being held down every single fight. Can you show me an example of jones or khabib being held down round after round?

Im talking about in game. Is that not apparent yet?

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Im talking about in game. Is that not apparent yet?

Ah i see. Apoligies, its hard to keep up some times haha

[Phillyboi207]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Does it really take skill to hold someone in half guard round after round? Or just patience? I could teach anyone how to do it, with relative ease. And remember, the devs actually patched the ref stand up logic recently. Because of complaints.

I would also agree that people selecting the highest rated fighters all the time vs. people who do not requires less skill for sure. Thats why Im against the blind pick for ranked.

You’re one of the top players. Do you honestly think somene can “easily” hold you down the whole fight?

I just dont get why we’re pretending outside fighting (one that involves distance ) takes less skill. Remember this is all based around the idea that you’d also have the ability to cut the cage effectively.

[AeroZeppelin27]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Lets use the example you gave, matt brown is a very good striker, its unbalanced in that department in favour of him, so it is balanced. The counter to maias style is having good wrestling. When you get to the top levels in mma minor differences seperate the top competitors.

Yeah but Matt Browns striking is in no way the same level as Maias BJJ.

And I love Matt Brown to death.

And the counter to Maias style is don't go to the ground in general, good wrestling helps keep you up, but it doesn't balance out the skill gap once your on the ground, prime example there is Magny, guys a fantastic wrestler but he hasn't got a good BJJ game at all.

Though I think we are looking at it in different ways maybe, your saying for each action there is a reaction kinda, and this creates balance, yeah?

I agree with that 100%.

I just don't think MMA is balanced in the sense of, pitting a BJJ wizard vs a crazy good striker.
It creates balance through imbalance though I guess..?

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Yeah but Matt Browns striking is in no way the same level as Maias BJJ.

And I love Matt Brown to death.

And the counter to Maias style is don't go to the ground in general, good wrestling helps keep you up, but it doesn't balance out the skill gap once your on the ground, prime example there is Magny, guys a fantastic wrestler but he hasn't got a good BJJ game at all.

Though I think we are looking at it in different ways maybe, your saying for each action there is a reaction kinda, and this creates balance, yeah?

I agree with that 100%.

I just don't think MMA is balanced in the sense of, pitting a BJJ wizard vs a crazy good striker.
It creates balance through imbalance though I guess..?

Yeah thats what i mean. An example would be an extremely aggressive fighter vs a reactive wrestler or a counter puncnher vs who sets traps and cuts of the cage.

[bmlimo]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Yeah thats what i mean. An example would be an extremely aggressive fighter vs a reactive wrestler or a counter puncnher vs who sets traps and cuts of the cage.

Paul Daley vs. Koscheck/ Anthony Johnson vs. Phil Davies

Hunt vs. overeem/Mcgregor vs. Alvarez

[ZHunter1990]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

You’re one of the top players. Do you honestly think somene can “easily” hold you down the whole fight?

I just dont get why we’re pretending outside fighting (one that involves distance ) takes less skill. Remember this is all based around the idea that you’d also have the ability to cut the cage effectively.

No, but I can easily hold most people down the entire round, round after round if I choose to take that route, but I dont. Because I enjoy activity and I think its a better representation of skill than LnP is.

Because unless in game outside fighting involves what I had mentioned earlier, it would require less skill, similar to how flabbing/fighting on the back foot requires less skill currentlly, if things are not changed drastically.

In short, I welcome the addition of better outside fighting if a complex system involving the outside fighter to critically think, constantly. But the closest thing we have to real outside fighting currently(backdashing as a reaction to any strike, circling at an angle that you can never be cornered, and planting with stationary strikes to potshot aggressive fighters) is already borderline OP when compared to aggressing effectively vesus a good player. I just dont see a well thought out in depth system with balance happening properly in a patch. I could be wrong though.

To be clear, I am talking about theoretic outside fighting in game. Just so some people are clear on the context. Cough Finley Cough

[Solid_Altair]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

And i think thats us done haha. If thats the best you can do you have no leg to stand one my friend.

Just pointing out that "we" hadn't concluded that. The disagreement remained. Hence the new eruption of this thread, a bunch of pages all of a sudden.

[FCB x Finlay]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Just pointing out that "we" hadn't concluded that. The disagreement remained. Hence the new eruption of this thread, a bunch of pages all of a sudden.

Yes cause someone made a point, other than that we are back to square one. The original post still stands, outside fighting is not OP and is actually underpowered, nothing has shown otherwise.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I think you’re selling your own skills short if you think holding people down is that easy. If you cant really be held down then that kinda proves it’s more of a skill thing.

I’ll definitely agree the way the back dash currently work is wonky. Forced evasions are an issue and so is magnetic combos.

It reward timing more than distance. I also think the window for evasion should be tuned depending on the fighter’s footwork rating.

But it sounds like you agree with improved outside fighting as long as there is a counter to it so I cant say much else.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I think you’re selling your own skills short if you think holding people down is that easy. If you cant really be held down then that kinda proves it’s more of a skill thing.

I’ll definitely agree the way the back dash currently work is wonky. Forced evasions are an issue and so is magnetic combos.

It reward timing more than distance. I also think the window for evasion should be tuned depending on the fighter’s footwork rating.

But it sounds like you agree with improved outside fighting as long as there is a counter to it so I cant say much else.

Im not saying it doesnt take some skill to hold someone competent down. Im saying that posturing up and actively looking for a finish while holding someone competent down takes more skill. So for example, people begged for faster ref stand ups when people are LnPing. Rightfully so, as people would rather see skill and activity rewarded over something that is stally, easier to do and boring.

I just dont think that people realize what they are asking for could wind up being the standing version of LnP. Boring, with less skill involved.

So we should tread carefully and consider if that is a good risk to take at this point.