How is outside fighting considered OP?

[johnmangala]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

The same tool people are using to circle, is the same tool that can be used to cut them off. It is a matter of skill, as it should be.

Something like lateral or backwards sprint would be countered with lateral or forward sprint respectively.

Another thing that can be adjusted is more vulnerability to moving into a strike or grapple, so cutting off vs circling can be balanced to whatever meta that is being aimed at.

Other tools which involve grappling can be included as well but footwork is at the root of this imo.

[ZHunter1990]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

The same tool people are using to circle, is the same tool that can be used to cut them off. It is a matter of skill, as it should be.

Something like lateral or backwards sprint would be countered with lateral or forward sprint respectively.

Another thing that can be adjusted is more vulnerability to moving into a strike or grapple, so cutting off vs circling can be balanced to whatever meta that is being aimed at.

Other tools which involve grappling can be included as well but footwork is at the root of this imo.

Except that the person who is retreating has a huge advantage in interupting forward moving strikes with much faster stationary strikes. So the reatreater is at a pretty big advantage.

Example: You land a jab leg kick to start off, tgen retreat using the endless circle. In order to win the round, I am forced to aggress. If you conti ually circle, I cannot hit you with stationary strikes. So Im forced to try and grapple(which is easily shut down) or throw forward moving strikes. You then, at random times, stop and intercept me in vuln windows to punish my forward moving attack. So the game becomes about who can make the other player chase, based om the first few exchanges.

[johnmangala]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Except that the person who is retreating has a huge advantage in interupting forward moving strikes with much faster stationary strikes. So the reatreater is at a pretty big advantage.

Example: You land a jab leg kick to start off, tgen retreat using the endless circle. In order to win the round, I am forced to aggress. If you conti ually circle, I cannot hit you with stationary strikes. So Im forced to try and grapple(which is easily shut down) or throw forward moving strikes. You then, at random times, stop and intercept me in vuln windows to punish my forward moving attack. So the game becomes about who can make the other player chase, based om the first few exchanges.

As it should be scientifically.

The main tool fighters use in these situations is grappling, cutting a fighter off and catching them against the cage.

Hence you see fighters like Gaethje use the paw moving forward to grab and dictate pace. You cannot do that in the game hence the imbalance.



Things like TD against the cage have to be more reliable and even initiatable from the clinch against the cage.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Except that the person who is retreating has a huge advantage in interupting forward moving strikes with much faster stationary strikes. So the reatreater is at a pretty big advantage.

Example: You land a jab leg kick to start off, tgen retreat using the endless circle. In order to win the round, I am forced to aggress. If you conti ually circle, I cannot hit you with stationary strikes. So Im forced to try and grapple(which is easily shut down) or throw forward moving strikes. You then, at random times, stop and intercept me in vuln windows to punish my forward moving attack. So the game becomes about who can make the other player chase, based om the first few exchanges.

In this example what’s stopping you from cutting off the cage and then landing your stationary strikes?

Or feinting and countering their intercept strikes?

Edit: Judging is another issue. Damage shouldnt be exact and instead should be based upon ranges since real life judges canf do anything more than aproximate damage.A jab and leg kick is negligible and should pretty much have y’all at a tie for damage.

[johnmangala]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Another gif from the same fight

[Phillyboi207]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Im not saying it doesnt take some skill to hold someone competent down. Im saying that posturing up and actively looking for a finish while holding someone competent down takes more skill. So for example, people begged for faster ref stand ups when people are LnPing. Rightfully so, as people would rather see skill and activity rewarded over something that is stally, easier to do and boring.

I just dont think that people realize what they are asking for could wind up being the standing version of LnP. Boring, with less skill involved.

So we should tread carefully and consider if that is a good risk to take at this point.

Btw did people really beg for more ref stands out of simply boredom or because in real life fighters get stood up for stalling?

I just completely disagree that it’s less skilled.

Less risk yes but more risk doesnt necessarily mean more skill. The fighter choosing to tak less risks also puts himself at a disadvantage because he’s doing less damage and opens himself up to having the round stolen with 1 good sub or getting damaged on the feet by the other person.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I may also add that the block breaking faster now when moving forward was actually not a good thing for the meta. You can no longer hold your block up to take shots in order to get in on someone, this allows the dancing on the outside we're seeing now.

You have to use your jab to enter in range now because all the other strikes are too slow and you will get countered by a stationary punch. Half the time even your jab will get intercepted by the guy on the outside. Originally I liked this change as it is more realistic to have to strike in order to get in range, but since sways are nerfed you no longer have the option of using head movement to enter the inside (the other way based on realism). The slow down on shots allowed someone to dodge one and get on the inside. Now even if you dodge two jabs in a row you still can't get inside.

Meaning there is no proper response to this action other than trying to land a leg kick and back up once you have a point advantage. If they are bad enough to get trapped on the fence, your stamina is at a big disadvantage because you've just thrown a combo to enter range. This allows them to win the exchange of two stationary combos. If you block their combo, they will exit the cage area when you try to land yours back.

[aholbert32]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Btw did people really beg for more ref stands out of simply boredom or because in real life fighters get stood up for stalling?

I just completely disagree that it’s less skilled.

Less risk yes but more risk doesnt necessarily mean more skill. The fighter choosing to tak less risks also puts himself at a disadvantage because he’s doing less damage and opens himself up to having the round stolen with 1 good sub or getting damaged on the feet by the other person.

It was the latter at OS. It was a no brainer given that the balance/fun crowd liked it for boredom reasons and the realism crowd wanted it because it actually happens in real life.

[aholbert32]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I may also add that the block breaking faster now when moving forward was actually not a good thing for the meta. You can no longer hold your block up to take shots in order to get in on someone, this allows the dancing on the outside we're seeing now.

You have to use your jab to enter in range now because all the other strikes are too slow and you will get countered by a stationary punch. Half the time even your jab will get intercepted by the guy on the outside. Originally I liked this change as it is more realistic to have to strike in order to get in range, but since sways are nerfed you no longer have the option of using head movement to enter the inside (the other way based on realism). The slow down on shots allowed someone to dodge one and get on the inside. Now even if you dodge two jabs in a row you still can't get inside.

Meaning there is no proper response to this action other than trying to land a leg kick and back up once you have a point advantage. If they are bad enough to get trapped on the fence, your stamina is at a big disadvantage because you've just thrown a combo to enter range. This allows them to win the exchange of two stationary combos. If you block their combo, they will exit the cage area when you try to land yours back.

How many strikes does it take to break someones block while they hold block and move forward?

Can you use head movement to still get inside? The nerf was to strikes that come immediately after head movement (which was needed given thats all people were doing pre-patch.) but you should still be able to apply pressure simply by moving forward and using head movement, right?

Here is the big question though:

HOW THE HELL ARE YOU GUYS STILL WINNING SO MUCH?

Help me understand this. I've been told that outside fighting is the new meta for over a month. Kenetic tells me that its rampant on Xbox in the top level. Zack and others say that it lowers the skill level.

Yet when I ask them if they are losing to the "runners"....the answer is no.

Someone gave me an example of a player on UFC 2 who was average but after Season 2 started he's been on a run and his winning percentage is much higher. I ask "how many of those wins are against elite guys like Kinetic and Pry and others?" "None".

Where are the losses? Why would people choose a meta thats not going to consistently win at the very top level?

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

How many strikes does it take to break someones block while they hold block and move forward?

Can you use head movement to still get inside? The nerf was to strikes that come immediately after head movement (which was needed given thats all people were doing pre-patch.) but you should still be able to apply pressure simply by moving forward and using head movement, right?

Here is the big question though:

HOW THE HELL ARE YOU GUYS STILL WINNING SO MUCH?

Help me understand this. I've been told that outside fighting is the new meta for over a month. Kenetic tells me that its rampant on Xbox in the top level. Zack and others say that it lowers the skill level.

Yet when I ask them if they are losing to the "runners"....the answer is no.

Someone gave me an example of a player on UFC 2 who was average but after Season 2 started he's been on a run and his winning percentage is much higher. I ask "how many of those wins are against elite guys like Kinetic and Pry and others?" "None".

Where are the losses? Why would people choose a meta thats not going to consistently win at the very top level?

These guys generally lose because they aren't good at the fundamentals of the game. They are able to be competitive because this is the best way to play the game if you're looking for the easiest way to win.

I have played several guys who DO have solid fundamentals and I HAVE lost to them sometimes because when they do get trapped, they are skilled enough to survive until they can press their point advantage again. Or better yet, KO you because you're coming forward trying to win by knockout because it's the only way you can now.

They are few in far between though. Doesn't make it any less of a problem.

[aholbert32]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

These guys generally lose because they aren't good at the fundamentals of the game. They are able to be competitive because this is the best way to play the game if you're looking for the easiest way to win.

I have played several guys who DO have solid fundamentals and I HAVE lost to them sometimes because when they do get trapped, they are skilled enough to survive until they can press their point advantage again. Or better yet, KO you because you're coming forward trying to win by knockout because it's the only way you can now.

They are few in far between though. Doesn't make it any less of a problem.

Now I disagree with that. If it was an epidemic (like a few of my colleagues have made it seem) where elite players were consistently losing to lesser players....thats something that needs to be addressed. Its a clear imbalance.

What it appears is that against the elite, the skill divide is still large enough where they are able to win no matter the style.

Also, I struggle to see how there is a point advantage. I was watching a fight between two elite players them the other day and one of them was using an elusive style (as elusive as any style can be in this game).

Now the elusive player won despite being hurt alot in that fight. He caught the other player in the 5th because he had a stamina advantage and imo he didnt get conservative and ride out a decision.

My point in bringing this up is the second player was winning the fight because its judging isnt based on strike totals, it was based on damage. Ive seen similar fight too where elite fighters are frustrated because someone is being elusive....even though they are dominating the fight and clearly causing more damage.

I would love to see some videos where someone with an elusive style (on back foot/barely engaging/point fighting) is consistently winning against elite level fighters but no one has been able to provide me with one.

[MaccaC]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

The only disadvantage to fighting on the backfoot currently is usually GA near the cage, if youre playing as a striker you can't take advantage of that anyway, If you want even more seperation you crazy and thats from someone who plays every fight for the most part on the back foot or throwing stationary because why wouldnt you?

[rabbitfistssaipailo]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

I'm gong to read this thread all the way from the start ...the knowledge here dropped is really eye opening .

@ r monkey ,
Bro ...I agree with you on the forward moving block thingy being a bad idea . When I read or heard about it first I thought it would kick in if the engine or AI or whatever realised that you pressed up against your opponent moving forward and they threw a couple of strikes or something of that nature or after a couple of strikes .

I then asked myself how do I now enter the pocket if that is so ? Because in the later rounds when both of you are drained ...entering the pocket is dangerous without your guard up ...only other option was to use head movement especially if your opponent is against the cage .

TBH I used the forward moving zombie / Terminator style to frustrate my pal one day who was a head spammer ...still lost on decision tho ...never tried it again .

But entering the pocket now is dangerous especially when you are loosing by the judge's score cards

Sent from my Infinix Zero 4 using Tapatalk

[UFCBlackbelt]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Now I disagree with that. If it was an epidemic (like a few of my colleagues have made it seem) where elite players were consistently losing to lesser players....thats something that needs to be addressed. Its a clear imbalance.

What it appears is that against the elite, the skill divide is still large enough where they are able to win no matter the style.

Also, I struggle to see how there is a point advantage. I was watching a fight between two elite players them the other day and one of them was using an elusive style (as elusive as any style can be in this game).

Now the elusive player won despite being hurt alot in that fight. He caught the other player in the 5th because he had a stamina advantage and imo he didnt get conservative and ride out a decision.

My point in bringing this up is the second player was winning the fight because its judging isnt based on strike totals, it was based on damage. Ive seen similar fight too where elite fighters are frustrated because someone is being elusive....even though they are dominating the fight and clearly causing more damage.

I would love to see some videos where someone with an elusive style (on back foot/barely engaging/point fighting) is consistently winning against elite level fighters but no one has been able to provide me with one.

There is an inherent disadvantage to fighting as a grappler who doesn't have striking to back it up.

The disadvantage comes from the fact that grappling can be neutralized many ways. Stalling in sprawl, stalling in back mount, spamming guard transitions, clinch knee and then clinch break. While striking really can only be neutralized by the clinch grapple which is very risky, normal takedowns almost never amount to anything unless you catch a kick. I ask anyone who disagreed with me to see if they have more success using someone like Paulo Costa against top 100 players versus Oleynik. The variance in wins will be huge.

The only time I've seen grappling used effectively at the high levels are to stall rounds out or if the grappler also has great striker stats such as GSP.

Hopefully this will all be fixed in the next patch, I pick a fighter like Eddie Alvarez and when I'm fighting against a top 100 Conor user I end up winning because of my striking, it's like "Why did I even bother using Alvarez?"

[Counter Punch]

Re: How is outside fighting considered OP?

Hopefully this will all be fixed in the next patch, I pick a fighter like Eddie Alvarez and when I'm fighting against a top 100 Conor user I end up winning because of my striking, it's like "Why did I even bother using Alvarez?"

I don’t follow your logic here.

The outcome depends to a large degree on the skill if your opponent. You’d be surprised to learn that a good number of the top 100 are there not because of a well rounded skillset but because they are proficient at exploiting certain unintuitive aspects of the game.