*** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I still think that no matter what they do, they will not change the past.

It's part of the reason why Daniel said what he did to his mother.

That's pretty cold.

Yea, that's my thought too. So, I guess now it's trying to figure out what the end will be.

Carlton and Damon both said that people have done a good job guessing the ending and the history of the smoke monster, but that everyone is still lost because they haven't revealed enough information on those things for us to even really draw up a more accurate educated guess.

It's all speculation until then.

[Coug00]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I still think that no matter what they do, they will not change the past.

It's part of the reason why Daniel said what he did to his mother.

That's pretty cold.

Yea, that's my thought too.

Yeah, I'm still strongly of the opinion that they can't change what has occurred and that Daniel was simply wrong regarding variables. Cuse and Lindelof have already given that answer away in past interviews and we've discussed it in this forum. They're avoiding the path Heroes took by going back and changing history.

If the Losties stop the Dharma people from mining into the energy source, then flight 815 never crashies and the Losties, as we know them in last night's episode, cease to exist. IMO, with the exception of Desmond, what happened, happened.

And it was cold of Eloise to kill her son, but I'm assuming she knowingly sacrificed him for the greater good of something we have yet to find out.

[p_rushing]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I don't think that notebook has anything on 1977. Daniel won't know a thing about that year. His notes will have mentions of things in the 90's and 2000's without a doubt. Perhaps even the Purge.

What I see is Ellie finding the notebook and then knowing that she needs to give that same book to her son when he graduates from school as a doctor. I'm seeing that Ellie is following destiny here. She knows what's supposed to happen because she read it back in 1977. So, as a mother, she moves Daniel down that path. No piano. No girls. Only math. Because math and science is what gets him to the Island and back to 1977 to reveal that information to her.

And she wants Daniel to carry this out despite knowing that he'll die because his death is mandatory. Ellie isn't interested in changing fate. She sees things as predestined. She tells Desmond that back in the jewelry shop and she tells Daniel this as he grows up.

The book clearly has stuff from 1977 in it. Daniel is looking at it and then looks at his watch and says right on time when waiting for Chang. Plus he knows that the event is going to happen at a certain day and time and that is in the book. He looked at it and then says it is going to happen in X time.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Yeah, I'm still strongly of the opinion that they can't change what has occurred and that Daniel was simply wrong regarding variables. Cuse and Lindelof have already given that answer away in past interviews and we've discussed it in this forum. They're avoiding the path Heroes took by going back and changing history.

If the Losties stop the Dharma people from mining into the energy source, then flight 815 never crashies and the Losties, as we know them in last night's episode, cease to exist. IMO, with the exception of Desmond, what happened, happened.

And it was cold of Eloise to kill her son, but I'm assuming she knowingly sacrificed him for the greater good of something we have yet to find out.

Eloise didn't sacrifice her son though.....Eloise knows that when she was young, she shot her son who was travelling from the future. Thats part of her past.

Regardless if she sends him back to the island or not, in 1977 she shot her son from the future, right?

[Coug00]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Eloise didn't sacrifice her son though.....Eloise knows that when she was young, she shot her son who was travelling from the future. Thats part of her past.

Regardless if she sends him back to the island or not, in 1977 she shot her son from the future, right?

Right, but her "future" self knew she was going to shoot Daniel in 1977 and did nothing to attempt to change that. She could have pushed Daniel towards music, but she didn't. She wouldn't have pushed him towards mathematics if him leaving his book on the island after his death wasn't very significant.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

The book clearly has stuff from 1977 in it. Daniel is looking at it and then looks at his watch and says right on time when waiting for Chang. Plus he knows that the event is going to happen at a certain day and time and that is in the book. He looked at it and then says it is going to happen in X time.

You're right. What I meant is that it doesn't have something that was written in it in 1977. I think it's mostly observations that he's seen from the 90's and 2000's while researching the past.

He knows it's on time because he studied 1977 and wrote it down. But he didn't write it down in 1977. He wrote it down in the 90's.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Right, but her "future" self knew she was going to shoot Daniel in 1977 and did nothing to attempt to change that. She could have pushed Daniel towards music, but she didn't. She wouldn't have pushed him towards mathematics if him leaving his book on the island after his death wasn't very significant.

But wasn't it Hawking that went through the whole spiel with Desmond when that guy got hit by the bricks....If it wasn't the bricks, it would be a car that killed him, etc.

No matter what she did, he was going to die(Is he confirmed dead or are they going to "Temple" him?).

I think she believes in destiny, but also why she pushed him in math because she thought that maybe if he could "outsmart" destiny.

But irregardless, Faraday was going to be shot by her in 1977. It happened. Period.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I think it's just the cause and effect all over again.

She knows it's supposed to happen but she still needs to do the things that lead up to that.

If she doesn't push him toward science then he doesn't go back in time. Yet, she already saw him go back and time, so why the need to push him? Probably because like any human, we'll still push for things to go the right way even if we know it's going to happen.

I thought that Daniel was going to talk about this when he told Chang about the energy.

When Miles asks him the purpose of sounding crazy, Daniel says, "You'll find out" or "You'll see." Something to that affect.

Maybe Daniel talks about variables and getting the Losties excited about it because their actions are what leads to everything that's happened. Daniel is just following destiny's path. But, it only appears to us that he's not.

[Unoriginal Name]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

But wasn't it Hawking that went through the whole spiel with Desmond when that guy got hit by the bricks....If it wasn't the bricks, it would be a car that killed him, etc.

No matter what she did, he was going to die(Is he confirmed dead or are they going to "Temple" him?).

I think she believes in destiny, but also why she pushed him in math because she thought that maybe if he could "outsmart" destiny.

But irregardless, Faraday was going to be shot by her in 1977. It happened. Period.

Similar story between Desmond and Charlie....no matter what Desmond did to save Charlie he was destined to die.

[Coug00]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

But wasn't it Hawking that went through the whole spiel with Desmond when that guy got hit by the bricks....If it wasn't the bricks, it would be a car that killed him, etc.

No matter what she did, he was going to die(Is he confirmed dead or are they going to "Temple" him?).

I think she believes in destiny, but also why she pushed him in math because she thought that maybe if he could "outsmart" destiny.

But irregardless, Faraday was going to be shot by her in 1977. It happened. Period.

The reason I think she wasn't pushing him to outsmart his destiny is based on her conversation with Penny. She told Penny that Desmond being shot was the first time she didn't know what happened next. She knew no matter what she did to attempt to stop Daniel from dying, he would eventually die.

So not only did she continually push Daniel towards mathematics knowing that it will kill him, she also pushed him towards going on the freighter knowing that he would eventually land up in 1977 and be shot by her. She knew whatever happened, happened and pushed it along its way.

IMO, Daniel's death was a necessity and Ms. Hawking knew it. She told Jack it was his destiny to go back to the island and now that Daniel is dead, it looks like Jack becomes the person who is going to try to stop the Dharma from hitting the energy source. We're obviously coming upon a major event involving Jack & the Losties and Eloise knows it.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

The reason I think she wasn't pushing him to outsmart his destiny is based on her conversation with Penny. She told Penny that Desmond being shot was the first time she didn't know what happened next. She knew no matter what she did to attempt to stop Daniel from dying, he would eventually die.

So not only did she continually push Daniel towards mathematics knowing that it will kill him, she also pushed him towards going on the freighter knowing that he would eventually land up in 1977 and be shot by her. She knew whatever happened, happened and pushed it along its way.

IMO, Daniel's death was a necessity and Ms. Hawking knew it. She told Jack it was his destiny to go back to the island and now that Daniel is dead, it looks like Jack becomes the person who is going to try to stop the Dharma from hitting the energy source. We're obviously coming upon a major event involving Jack & the Losties and Eloise knows it.

But even then, it already happened. There is nothing that isn't written in stone.

There are 2 ways to look the at the story:

1. From the Losties Perspective, evrything in 1977 is happening real time, they are dodging bullets, racing around the island, etc.

2. Look at it from the Dharma/Hostiles/Hawking perspective, the Losties are dodging bullets, racing around the island, because thats what they did and thats how they remember it.

Instead of looking at this from the Losties view, think of whatever you are watching is present day Hawking or Whidmore or Alpert retelling a story about the past.

Thats why Eloise doesn't know what happened to Desmond because he is living real time with her. But she sure knows the fate of everyone that flashed back to 1977.

[Coug00]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Instead of looking at this from the Losties view, think of whatever you are watching is present day Hawking or Whidmore or Alpert retelling a story about the past.

Thats why Eloise doesn't know what happened to Desmond because he is living real time with her. But she sure knows the fate of everyone that flashed back to 1977.

Yes, that's the exact reason Eloise doesn't know what happens next.

[Coug00]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Eloise didn't sacrifice her son though.....Eloise knows that when she was young, she shot her son who was travelling from the future. Thats part of her past.

Regardless if she sends him back to the island or not, in 1977 she shot her son from the future, right?

Just rewatched last night's episode. The scene between Charles and Eloise is rather big when it applies to what we're talking about.

Charles: My relationship with Penelope is one of the things I had to sacrifice.

Eloise: laughter. Sacrifice?! Don't you tell me about sacrifice Charles. I had to send my son back to the island knowing full well...

Charles: He was my son too, Eloise.

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Just rewatched last night's episode. The scene between Charles and Eloise is rather big when it applies to what we're talking about.

Charles: My relationship with Penelope is one of the things I had to sacrifice.

Eloise: laughter. Sacrifice?! Don't you tell me about sacrifice Charles. I had to send my son back to the island knowing full well...

Charles: He was my son too, Eloise.

Here's my take on that....

Widmore fathered Penny while he was away from the island doing whatever Hostiles do....He had a relationship with her but has always had to keep her away from him for various reasons.

He also had a thing going with Eloise. She was pregnant with Faraday when the island was evacuated because of the stuff Faraday was talking about to the Chinese Doctor.

So Widmore didn;t get to have a relationship with either of the children he fathered.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Remember when Charles is being shipped out of the Island and Ben tells him that he broke the rules. My assumption then and even now is that he fathered Penelope with a non-Other so he was exhiled from the Island.