The disturbing trend at OS

[J.R. Locke]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

Perhaps we elect members to sit on a panel that will be the ones to synthesize bugs, issues, wishlists to the developers?

There are posters on here that I really respect and know that would be great at interacting with the developers.

I don't go to the Madden forums much but I do post in the NCAA football forum a bit and I saw exactly what you guys are talking about in terms of disrespect towards individual developers.

I have had all good interaction through PM's with developers. I hope they don't abandon OS all together because of the biting personal remarks.

[stewaat]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I've been saying that for a while!!!

It will not happen because the devs & people hyping up the game want to be seen by as many people as possible. They want "interaction" so people will feel a connection and buy their game.

The supporters forum has ZERO problems of immaturity but devs RARELY go there...because they want their posts to be looked at by as many people as possible.

It's all about having "everyone" get their 2 cents thrown in...no matter how terrible they state their 2 cents.

[Sausage]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

First of all I am very happy I am not the only feeling this way. I can not find anything worth a read or post on the first 3 to 5 pages of the Madden and NCAA forum. I like Madden 10 a lot and enjoy the occasional NCAA 10, but the first five pages of each forum should just get shoved in the gripe thread. It's just crazy I tell ya.

[grunt]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

Seeing this post really bothers me. Its aggrevating that a developer of a game feels that he can't interact with our community because a few "knuckleheads" feel the need to show their buddy's how awesome they are because they "showed up" a game developer.

We've been awaiting the day that we would have the dev's ear to bend, to get our wants and needs across. To interact with. And just as quickly as it came, in this instance it seems, its going to be gone. Its a damn shame a few ruined it for the many.

But what bugs me even more, is when guys say that a dev should be "more thick-skinned". That they should "man up and deal with it", "the dev is soft", etc...How can anyone expect a developer or anyone to come to a place and constantly be bombarded with insult after insult, and watch as people go out of their way to find something wrong with their game.

I work in sales. And yesterday, I had a customer of mine busting my balls all day because I screwed something up. It was emails, phone messages, or when I'd call to correct the issue, I'd hear it from him again. Thats frustrating as all get out. It pissed me off, it made me not want to call him, or even deal with him, but of course I had to. And that was only one person. Imagine if I'd heard from every person at that business. They were posting message after message telling me how stupid I was, how they couldn't believe that I screwed this up, asking what was I thinking, or what have you.

I guess what I'm getting at, is that I wish people would stop and put themselves in the dev's shoes for a moment. See things from their perspective. But they don't and won't. And now, it seems that we've lost one developer from our boards. I can't help but wonder how many more will follow.

And I understand the mods have a tough time and are doing everything in their power to rid this site of that nonsense, but the problem is that for a post to reprimanded, it has to be posted, meaning its sitting there for everyone to see before its dealt with. And even then, its not always deleted, so its still visible to the public, and that includes the developers.

I have been at OS before the forums. I always wanted the developers to interact with gamers but I have to really reevaluate the value of interacting developers. I stopped posting on the Madden boards because of the extreme on both sides. I knew when the game came out there would be a backlash because "your the man" leads to how the heck did you ship the game with a certain bug or a bug that been in the game for the past few years.

We also have seen a rise of viral marketing with blogs from the developers and sometimes their very interaction with their customers take on a PT Barnum feel. No one like the feeling of being hustled. Developers market their games through promises and then ship games with obvious flaws and then you get this backlash. If the developer can take the praise then man the heck up and take the criticism.

I am now at the point I only purchased one sport game this calendar year (Madden 10). Thank you gamefly. One, back in the day I would purchased up to 12 sports game but the excuse of the 12 month sport cycle is cutting it for me. 60 bones is 60 bones and why would I put money down on a NCAA 10 when I could get Uncharted 2/Call of Duty games that play well and I don't have to be game testers for the next 12 months.

Maybe the only non sense that we believed that certain developers wasn't an extension of their marketing arm. I read that Madden spend 3 times amount of money of marketing the game than developing the game. I really believe that marketing is king with game companies and our interaction with developers doesn't have as much impact on the final game.

Some here may not like the youtube stuff of pointing out game flaws but I remember not too long ago (pre you tube) when you had complaints on a game you didn't have proof. Even without OS the ability to have visual proof has changed how we look at games. I can remember when certain games would ship year after year with the same flaw. The only difference now gamers can show the world those flaws and developers have to own up to their product.
Peace

[DrJones]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I really believe that marketing is king with game companies and our interaction with developers doesn't have as much impact on the final game.

This isn't exactly news. Generally, if marketing isn't happy, execs aren't happy. If execs aren't happy, people get fired.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I really hate when people use the, "THis is where we came from" card. As if that means we as consumers have no right to complain. If we KNOW the potential of a product, and we see what that company puts out, then we have all the right to be bothered and speak up about it.

Some of us make legit complaints. I know some don't but the majority of OS I think successfully explains their problems with a game in a manner that can't be denied.

Now there are too many "Defenders" in some of these forums. You can't say a negative word about a game and folks with come at you with guns. I am sick of THAT trend.

I totally agree with this.

Furthermore, one of the big trends at OS is for the early, break-the-street-date guys, to get a copy and go on and on about how great a game is. Early impressions are usually far more favourable than the average guy's impressions and I think it sometimes leads to disappointment and backlash when everyone gets their hands on the game. Some of the negativity does go overboard but the same thing happens with overly positive guy. Both can be annoying to me.

Let's look at NCAA Football 10. It got an 80 Metacritic score for the PS3 and an 83 score for the 360. It's probably a fair assessment for the average gamer. But the early guys would have given the game a 95+. The haters want to give the game a failing score. And the guy that actually agrees with the score is often silent or is the casual gamer that doesn't post much on message boards. I wish we had more moderate posters on both ends.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

Yeah Millenium nailed it, there is a definite sense of entitlement and a lack of respect going on in these forums that, quite frankly, is somewhat appalling. Maybe some of these folks should take a few computer science courses and they'd feel a bit different about criticizing these guys so much?

This is a complete cop out post. You better NEVER question a coach's call in a game since you could never be a college or pro coach then. I hate it when people say things like, "Why don't you try to make a better game yourself?" I can't fix a car but if a car company makes a piece of crap I have the right to complain. I don't make TV shows or movies either but I'll still comment on whether I like a show or not. The same thing can be said for every industry out there. Just because I can't design a video game does not give a developer a "Get out of Jail free card". It doesn't mean a developer should be attacked personally or that people should be rude either. But people can still critique a product even if they can't make it.

[countryboy]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

If the developer can take the praise then man the heck up and take the criticism.

But therein lies the problem. Some posters don't know how to properly express critcism. Personal attacks is not criticizing one's effort put into a video game, its only criticizing the individual.

And I don't think there is a dev on these forums that hasn't manned up and took the criticism. They've listened to negative feedback and done there best with it. Heck, critcism made some differences in Madden as it allowed them to make some changes prior to release. It worked for NCAA as they heard the outrage on the progression issue and released a 3rd patch trying to correct the issue.

The problem again, is not developers not taking criticism, because they have, its the immaturity of a few posters who think that personally attacking a dev is the same thing as criticism. And the bigger problem is, they go into as many threads as the devs appear in, and repeat the same attack over and over.

[grunt]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

This isn't exactly news. Generally, if marketing isn't happy, execs aren't happy. If execs aren't happy, people get fired.

No, people get fired when games fail to sell. Execs are happy with growth not with marketing department.

[grunt]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

But therein lies the problem. Some posters don't know how to properly express critcism. Personal attacks is not criticizing one's effort put into a video game, its only criticizing the individual.

And I don't think there is a dev on these forums that hasn't manned up and took the criticism. They've listened to negative feedback and done there best with it. Heck, critcism made some differences in Madden as it allowed them to make some changes prior to release. It worked for NCAA as they heard the outrage on the progression issue and released a 3rd patch trying to correct the issue.

The problem again, is not developers not taking criticism, because they have, its the immaturity of a few posters who think that personally attacking a dev is the same thing as criticism. And the bigger problem is, they go into as many threads as the devs appear in, and repeat the same attack over and over.

I am not clear on the role of developers being the mechanism for feedback or influencing opinions of the hardcore.

OS mods have the power to warn and ban. If, it became such an issues then the mods should have ban more people. Mods should have ban the fanatics calling him god because these are the same people who turn around and attack these developers. We are video games fans but some are video game fanatics. OS fanatics came out in full blast when games did not meet their expectations.

CB you are a positive person. You see the glass half full. You are radical here that you still enjoy sport video games. Many people here stop enjoying sport video gaming a long time ago and became cranks. Some here in all reality needs to take a step back from buying sport video games every year. I came to the conclusion if I am not happy with a product, change my consumption. Some here buy these games with history of marginal improvements so they can complain.

[ghm125]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

How can I complain when I go from this to this

AGREE!!!!!!!!100%

[countryboy]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I am not clear on the role of developers being the mechanism for feedback or influencing opinions of the hardcore.

OS mods have the power to warn and ban. If, it became such an issues then the mods should have ban more people. Mods should have ban the fanatics calling him god because these are the same people who turn around and attack these developers. We are video games fans but some are video game fanatics. OS fanatics came out in full blast when games did not meet their expectations.

CB you are a positive person. You see the glass half full. You are radical here that you still enjoy sport video games. Many people here stop enjoying sport video gaming a long time ago and became cranks. Some here in all reality needs to take a step back from buying sport video games every year. I came to the conclusion if I am not happy with a product, change my consumption. Some here buy these games with history of marginal improvements so they can complain.

Yes the mods have the power to warn and ban and they do a good job of that, but again, whats done is done. Very rarely are posts deleted from the forums. And even if they are, they are there long enough for someone to see and report them. If the devs are on the boards, then they see those posts as well.

And yes, I am a positive person. I don't buy video games to look for faults, I buy them to enjoy them. But I'll list any faults I find with the game. And as you said, there are people who will buy/rent the games simply so they can complain. And while I agree these people need to stop purchasing these games since they are not happy with them, they won't. Reason being, some if not all who do this, have an agenda they are trying to push. They know that if they are posting impressions without playing the game, they won't be taken seriously, so they rent/gamefly the game so that their concerns become credible.

Its these types of posters, who are making it extremely difficult to carry on conversations/discussions anymore about the good, the bad, and the ugly with sports games. Because they show up in every thread and will spout their nonsense.

[grunt]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

Yes the mods have the power to warn and ban and they do a good job of that, but again, whats done is done. Very rarely are posts deleted from the forums. And even if they are, they are there long enough for someone to see and report them. If the devs are on the boards, then they see those posts as well.

And yes, I am a positive person. I don't buy video games to look for faults, I buy them to enjoy them. But I'll list any faults I find with the game. And as you said, there are people who will buy/rent the games simply so they can complain. And while I agree these people need to stop purchasing these games since they are not happy with them, they won't. Reason being, some if not all who do this, have an agenda they are trying to push. They know that if they are posting impressions without playing the game, they won't be taken seriously, so they rent/gamefly the game so that their concerns become credible.

Its these types of posters, who are making it extremely difficult to carry on conversations/discussions anymore about the good, the bad, and the ugly with sports games. Because they show up in every thread and will spout their nonsense.

Good post. This thread is what make OS is such a great site. People with different opinions having a mature discussion without making it personal.

Peace

[countryboy]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

Good post. This thread is what make OS is such a great site. People with different opinions having a mature discussion without making it personal.

Peace

Agreed about this thread. Grunt, been a pleasure discussing our varying opinions without stooping to the level thats found all too often on this site.

Take care...

[DC]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

This is a complete cop out post. You better NEVER question a coach's call in a game since you could never be a college or pro coach then. I hate it when people say things like, "Why don't you try to make a better game yourself?" I can't fix a car but if a car company makes a piece of crap I have the right to complain. I don't make TV shows or movies either but I'll still comment on whether I like a show or not. The same thing can be said for every industry out there. Just because I can't design a video game does not give a developer a "Get out of Jail free card". It doesn't mean a developer should be attacked personally or that people should be rude either. But people can still critique a product even if they can't make it.

Great post.

Almost as bad as when pro athletes say the media have no right to talk since they never played pro ball. GREAT post.