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Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

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Old 07-18-2016, 10:58 AM   #33
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky60
It's like you don't even realize NBA2K and The Show even exists and are both extremely successful.

Those games matter not with respect to this thread and they have their own means of engaging the player well beyond simply "authenticity for authenticity's sake". Not to mention that Madden NFL also exists and is also extremely successful.

If you want to talk game design, though, let's talk game design. Rule #1 of game design is to know your audience. The audience for Madden NFL is much larger than you think it is, knows far less about football than you do, and has a much shorter attention span. Your goal as a game designer is to grab the user with interesting game mechanics and then keep them engaged as long as possible. For the average video game player, someone who isn't represented on this forum and someone I get paid to consider when making games, authenticity alone is not enough for the reasons above. You must engage them on a level they will understand and build on top of that.

In addition, if you overwhelm an average user with staggering depth straight away, they stop playing because they are intimidated by the number of options available to them. They don't know where to start. Good games ramp players up over time and experience. They start with a core gameplay mechanic which is relatively simple and repeatable, the one most essential and bare minimum to succeed, and build on top of that single mechanic over time.

Look at Cities: Skylines, for example. That game, a city builder, doesn't let you build highways, colleges, theme parks, or landmarks right from the get-go. Those tools are gated behind population milestones; you must build a city which reaches a certain population threshold before those things unlock. This forces the user to become intimately familiar with the tools he does have available from the start - two-lane roads, zones, power plants, and power lines. Turns out that these are the core mechanics needed to grow the city, and everything else in the game beyond those core tools helps the city grower faster and more densely, which allows the user to unlock more rewards and tools, which allows him to keep building a bigger metropolis.
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:03 AM   #34
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

Deuce, just wanna say your write up in the OP is, in my opinion, one of the greatest posts ever on OS.

Thank you, sir
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:24 AM   #35
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Hooe
If you want to talk game design, though, let's talk game design. Rule #1 of game design is to know your audience. The audience for Madden NFL is much larger than you think it is
I don't believe the "audiences" between Madden and a video game like NBA2K are nearly as different as you think. My guess is they are pretty similar.

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Originally Posted by CM Hooe
Look at Cities: Skylines, for example. That game, a city builder, doesn't let you build highways, colleges, theme parks, or landmarks right from the get-go.
Talk about different audiences and the appropriateness of comparisons. Why is it the audience is so different between Madden and NBA2K that a franchise comparison can't be made, yet games as different as Skylines have audiences similar enough to make comparisons?

NBA2K and The Show is proof that DoubleDueces CFM can be very successful in Madden.

I'm with ya DoubleDuece.
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:42 AM   #36
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Hooe
Those games matter not with respect to this thread and they have their own means of engaging the player well beyond simply "authenticity for authenticity's sake". Not to mention that Madden NFL also exists and is also extremely successful.

If you want to talk game design, though, let's talk game design. Rule #1 of game design is to know your audience. The audience for Madden NFL is much larger than you think it is, knows far less about football than you do, and has a much shorter attention span. Your goal as a game designer is to grab the user with interesting game mechanics and then keep them engaged as long as possible. For the average video game player, someone who isn't represented on this forum and someone I get paid to consider when making games, authenticity alone is not enough for the reasons above. You must engage them on a level they will understand and build on top of that.

In addition, if you overwhelm an average user with staggering depth straight away, they stop playing because they are intimidated by the number of options available to them. They don't know where to start. Good games ramp players up over time and experience. They start with a core gameplay mechanic which is relatively simple and repeatable, the one most essential and bare minimum to succeed, and build on top of that single mechanic over time.

Look at Cities: Skylines, for example. That game, a city builder, doesn't let you build highways, colleges, theme parks, or landmarks right from the get-go. Those tools are gated behind population milestones; you must build a city which reaches a certain population threshold before those things unlock. This forces the user to become intimately familiar with the tools he does have available from the start - two-lane roads, zones, power plants, and power lines. Turns out that these are the core mechanics needed to grow the city, and everything else in the game beyond those core tools helps the city grower faster and more densely, which allows the user to unlock more rewards and tools, which allows him to keep building a bigger metropolis.


Almost all of what u say of game design is truly unfortunate. I don't argue your points, and understand them for the most part. I don't think any of these points were thought of early in video game history, I would say, however. The original reason madden was created was to create a video game that mimicked football, or simulated football, if u will. That being said, it should've been designed only for those that like/enjoy/know football. Same for BBall, soccer, any sport. A sports title should always be true to the sport, not to the casual (but, again, I understand your points and also understand the money plays a part in all of this, so, of course, any vid game wants casuals and/or as many buyers as they can get). As for other vid games, I think of something like halo, the original. I don't think any of your points were much thought of, then. Their idea was simply, 'let's create a kickass shooter and give it a cool story.' U know? I mean, that's it. The truly best games that have been created, I would argue, were built with this concept in mind, 'we want to build a kickass game that does X.' Casuals, unfortunately, are currently watering down all game quality, I would say. Lol. Whether it's a shooter, 2d scroller, or sports title. When a game designer creates the game they envision and give it proper functionality true to its 'game world', so to speak, is when truly great games are created and, I would argue, are enjoyed most by hardcore fans, but can also be enjoyed enough by casuals.


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Old 07-18-2016, 11:47 AM   #37
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

Incredible post and so well thought out. It saddens me that there is nothing like this available at the moment for such an illustrious and popular sport.

I wanted to post something similar to this but nowhere near in enough detail.

"So I want to start off and say that I am a British NFL fan, been falling in love with the sport for the past 3 years and Sundays are now solely for watching and embracing the NFL.

Lets talk Madden, boy do i get hyped about this game. I bloody love it, the thought of building and moulding your team to glory is incredibly appealing to me. However, I do have a few issues that I aren't overly pleased about.

The gameplay for me pretty much perfect, although it does feel like its party popper, all bang and no paper streamers. Here is my view on Madden specifically the Franchise mode and where it could be improved.

For me there is no 'World', at the moment its a selection of menus that you rinse and repeat after every game. I don't feel involved with the other 31 teams theres nothing there that links me to them.

The start of every game I play feels like I have been there before, I have seen the 15 man generic huddle. The coach pacing the sideline its old hat now. As a Brit watching the NFL, I love the over the topness, the patriotism, the excitement. I don't feel that at all and its lacking. An NFL season is incredibly short, 16 games and its over for most teams so each game should be an occasion. A celebration of the game thats going to take place.

Where's the National Anthem? The American Flag on the field? The fly over? The buildup outside the stadiums with the tailgates.

Each team and city has this unique culture and environment, why cant we see city landmarks like the Empire State building or Times Square. It adds to the character of a team, it inspires me knowing I am playing for a city. And If i am the away team this makes me feel like I'm at an away game, the stadium flyover adds to the tension as I know i am in unfamiliar territory. The broadcasters have this and it really showcases the game.

Why can't we have crowds emptying during the fourth quarter? If im blowing out a team on their home turf, I have earned the right to see their fans disappointed, not still cheering in their generic one colour t shirts. This takes away the immersion for me.

Could we get starting lineup entrances where they announce the players? Ive built my franchise i want to feel like I'm showing my stars off to the crowd.

Playing an MNF game could they not advertise the next MNF game coming up next week, this would add to the 'being in the NFL world' and subliminally make me away of other games going on.

So i feel like this bit I'm about to say may sound like a rant but it shouldn't, why do certain features never get built upon. For example during certain games you get a scene with a QB spinning the ball after hes been sacked 5 times/made several epic passes. Why hasnt this been developed further by adding stats about his longest pass of the game, how many completions etc.

Another example is the metallic stadium intro we've had for the past 2 Maddens. Sure they have replaced it with this new rock concert intro but they could of developed the old intro further by during the metallic stadium into the blimp cam, checking out the local atmosphere. Could show highlights from previous games between the two teams, storylines between the coaches.

At the moment i find the developers are taking away something and adding something new which does essentially the same job.

Madden is packaged with 32 licensed teams i feel it should be taking advantage of this a lot more. Other sports games like MLB and NBA2k do this so much better with leagues that have 84/100+ games a season. NFL has 16 games, there shouldn't be excuses as to why this isn't breaking new ground.

The time it takes to code a new RB spin move seems like less time than filming the tutorial to show off the feature to us.

Its a bit late here and couldn't sleep so started thinking about Madden, I'm excited for Madden 17 of course but feeling slightly underwhelmed. I do want to say that the Commentary team sounds incredible, I am excited for sure to play the game and will obviously buy it regardless if the teams were The Bay Area Pirates or the QBs were Tim Brody.

Maybe thats the problem, id buy the game regardless because I love football."
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:57 AM   #38
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Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky60
I don't believe the "audiences" between Madden and a video game like NBA2K are nearly as different as you think. My guess is they are pretty similar.
Whether there is crossover between the audiences is not the point. My point is that the general audiences for Madden / NBA / MLB isn't as knowledgable on what the NFL is and how it works as you, me, or anyone else here on this forum is. Authenticity alone doesn't move the needle for these people because they don't have knowledge of the real-life mechanic in question. You have to teach and engage these people on a different level.

If you aren't considering the perspective of someone who knows less than you when making a game, you aren't doing your job properly.

Quote:
Talk about different audiences and the appropriateness of comparisons. Why is it the audience is so different between Madden and NBA2K that a franchise comparison can't be made, yet games as different as Skylines have audiences similar enough to make comparisons?

NBA2K and The Show is proof that DoubleDueces CFM can be very successful in Madden.
Madden isn't special because it is a football video game, and there are certain components of video game design which are universal. If you want to argue that a video game doesn't need to engage its audience with engaging mechanics and strong feedback loops (which, to be clear, NBA 2K and MLB The Show both do this but in different ways), be my guest, but you voluntarily disqualify yourself from any serious conversation on this topic by doing so.

Quote:
I'm with ya DoubleDuece.

This isn't a "with you or against you" issue. What I offered was constructive criticism for Deuce to help him make his idea better from the perspective of someone who actually makes video games and gets paid for it. Whether he values that feedback, who knows, but forgive me for offering him feedback to help him make his good ideas better because I am not going to apologize for doing so.
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Old 07-18-2016, 12:43 PM   #39
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

Great write up Deuce and regarding Free Agency, I think the culmination of those elements you outlined would inherently make it better than what other games have done. With so many of those systems interacting, in theory they would add up to a more authentic FA. As far as the User goes, I think as long as they have some level of uncertainty about precise player ratings, it incentives considering the evaluations of position coaches and scouts, which levels the playing field with the AI.

@CMHooe, it's illogical to suggest that a NFL simulation video game should be generally designed to NOT replicate NFL elements to attract gamers and equally so in a NFL based mode like CFM within the game. You and EA Tib have this twisted and backwards, Madden the NFL simulation video game in general and specifically CFM should be NFL representative to the nth degree, while various options and other modes should be provided to cater to various types of gamers. Both the NFL and NFL multi-year Franchise actually exist in real life, so those should be emulated in Madden, while modes like MUT and DC, which don't exist in the real NFL, are invented video game modes, can be designed however, to cater to whomever.

That's the logical way some other simulation sports video games do it and some of what Deuce seems to be advocating for, which those other games proved works, even in competitive markets. On the other hand what you and EA Tib advocate for only seems to work in markets void of direct competition and when it was tried in a competitive market with direct competition, NBA video games, it failed miserably. So while either approach and almost any approach where the game is released for that matter, would likely result in Madden sales in the current market, the logical way clearly results in a more realistic game, which EA Tib claims is the goal for Madden, ergo makes the most sense.
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Old 07-18-2016, 12:46 PM   #40
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Hooe
Those games matter not with respect to this thread and they have their own means of engaging the player well beyond simply "authenticity for authenticity's sake". Not to mention that Madden NFL also exists and is also extremely successful.

If you want to talk game design, though, let's talk game design. Rule #1 of game design is to know your audience. The audience for Madden NFL is much larger than you think it is, knows far less about football than you do, and has a much shorter attention span. Your goal as a game designer is to grab the user with interesting game mechanics and then keep them engaged as long as possible. For the average video game player, someone who isn't represented on this forum and someone I get paid to consider when making games, authenticity alone is not enough for the reasons above. You must engage them on a level they will understand and build on top of that.

In addition, if you overwhelm an average user with staggering depth straight away, they stop playing because they are intimidated by the number of options available to them. They don't know where to start. Good games ramp players up over time and experience. They start with a core gameplay mechanic which is relatively simple and repeatable, the one most essential and bare minimum to succeed, and build on top of that single mechanic over time.

Look at Cities: Skylines, for example. That game, a city builder, doesn't let you build highways, colleges, theme parks, or landmarks right from the get-go. Those tools are gated behind population milestones; you must build a city which reaches a certain population threshold before those things unlock. This forces the user to become intimately familiar with the tools he does have available from the start - two-lane roads, zones, power plants, and power lines. Turns out that these are the core mechanics needed to grow the city, and everything else in the game beyond those core tools helps the city grower faster and more densely, which allows the user to unlock more rewards and tools, which allows him to keep building a bigger metropolis.
If you assume the average Madden potential buyer is a video game fan with a passing interest in football i would agree with your criticism however i feel it's just as likely if not more so that he or she is an avid NFL fan with a passing interest in video games .
Maybe EA know have access to information to distinguish ?
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