Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by rooney8

Great post Sven. Now pretend you're Ian and try and sell Alignment, Assignment, Continuity to marketing. So basically how will this make the game more fun and appeal to the masses and thus sell more copies?

That's why I wouldn't want that job. I'm not exactly Mr. Personality, and selling isn't my shtick.

It'll make the game more fun because the AI will put up a fight without the cheesyness that All-Madden and slider adjustments produce. It will also clear up a lot of cheese plays that exist because of simple AI exploits.

How do you sell that? I don't know. When people want more blitzes and stunts and more advanced playbooks, how do you convince them that they really don't want those things? They just want what they have to work.

It's the same issue with the running game this year. People are upset because the playbooks are smaller. But they work. And they're more authentic. But, somehow the idea that complicated=realistic has become the "truth" so damn to reality.

[shttymcgee]

Nice job breaking down some run responsibilities, and you're absolutely right about attacking the near hip. Of course, actual techniques for deciding whether to play over or under blocks is a little more complicated (probably not necessary to be discussed since taking the rt pursuit will normally put the player in the proper position).

One thing I question though is making man-to-man defensive backs in a position of force responsibility. I feel that the emol should have force because its easy for offenses to use formations (compressed or stacked) to make cloud force virtually impossible (especially in the "fast" screen game). Also, that force DB is gonna be seriously stressed by inside releases by plus-split receivers. In my experience, its best to just in-effect lose the DB's in the run game if playing man-to-man. However, I think it's possible to have them play force if they're in an outside trail position (2 man).

[rooney8]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven

There's some sort of weird misconception about pursuit angles. It's almost become a mythical creature about how touchy and difficult they are. The best pursuit angles are simple: Everybody runs directly at the nearest hip of the ball carrier

Sorry but that doesn't work at all and that's the way it was in Madden not sure if it still is.
Running at the nearest hip.
.____________H______________
|___________________________|
^ Touchdown!
^
^^
^..^
^.....<............................SS
^........<.....................<
^............<............<
^................<....<
^
^
^
HB*


It should be more like.
.____________H______________
|___________________________|

BOOM!
^..<
^......<...<....<
^.....................<...<...<..SS
^
^
^
^
^
^
HB*

But the SS can't alway be looking to cut people off. He needs take several different things into account like his position on the field, his speed, his teammates position, the HB speed, position and direction. And then with this info make an intelligent decision. That is AI and it is beautiful when done well.
.____________H______________
|___________________________|
.
.
.
.
.
.
.....................................SS?
.
..........FS
.
....CB
...WR
?
^
HB*
........MLB

[CreatineKasey]

Rooney, I think Sven was talking about situations where opponents were not running down the sideline. Also, the force player should force that runner to make a cut where all those players running at the ballcarrier's hip can make the tackle. In real life, if a runner is untouched they will often breakaway and score.

Oftentimes, safeties squad down about 10-15 yards beyond the LOS and make the saving tackle. I was taught in football to pursue from the backside at an angle that reaches the ballcarrier's hip once we interacted, not at the current position. If that were the case, everyone would be running straight at the HB at the snap lol!

[shttymcgee]

The safeties angle depends on what his assignment is. Lets say it's cover 2. The playside safety is responsible for secondary support. That means, as Sven already explained, that he will slow-play the run until the ball has crossed the los, but once it does, he will attack the outside hip of the runner in order to help force the play back inside if the corner hasn't done his job. The backside safety is the cut-off player. He will be the one taking the high angle to stop a long run. In each scheme, only one defender is assigned to take an angle that will "save a touchdown." It's normally the secondary support player to the backside of the play.

Most now teach pursuit the way Sven described it, by pursuing directly at the ball carrier, adjusting on the move. Taking high angles leads to cutbacks.

Of course, things change in the open field on a run-out, but that's not what he was talking about. Every team runs a variety of pursuit drills which are designed to "in-grain" the proper angles of pursuit with each defense played.

[Hova57]

i think the defense lacks flow at times , but could be fixed if players actually played gap control and technique. especially from a 3-4 perspective.

[sheredia]

Quote: Originally Posted by havokeff

Love defensive minded posts. I have to say though, that the D in Madden, while not perfect, is pretty serviceable. I can shut down pretty much anyone I play against with the D that I run. Also, while I agree with you whole heartedly on the lack of attention to detail when it comes to D in Madden, all the issues you mentioned, can be addressed with manual control, shifts and some of the pre snap alignment calls. Again, not perfect, but serviceable. Personally, I enjoy it this way. There is nothing better than watching my opponents get pissed and say that I am cheating as I shift and slant right into their plays because I recognize their plays from formation. I take great pleasure in that.

i agree....it's all about recognizing the offense and adjusting your defense accordingly. i don't use scouting....takes too much time. i use no-huddle if i catch them in a bad formation too. i love the chess match quality of playing online. your opponents shouldn't get mad...they just need to make adjustments.

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by rooney8

It should be more like. .____________H______________ |___________________________| BOOM! ^..< ^......<...<....< ^.....................<...<...<..SS ^ ^hb>>> ^ ^ ^ ^ HB*

Now you have that DB doing hip flips back and forth...if he's lucky.

As I said before, there is no "Good" angle for a free runner up the sideline. No matter what the defender does...he's wrong. But that isn't the focus, because the way Madden has it now is fine. The goal is to STOP LETTING THE RUNNERS UP THE SIDELINE.